Cirrus down, Chapel Hill NC

On 2010-08-06, a wrote:
On Aug 6, 12:04*am, Gemini wrote:
On 2010-08-06, Dave Doe wrote:



In article ,
says...

On 2010-08-01, anthony wrote:
On Jul 30, 11:24*am, Franklin
wrote:
Stephen! wrote:
a wrote in
news:9bc82c51-ad2d-48c4-bbd8-03eb64291845
@g35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

The likely lesson is, learn or relearn to control your energy!

* All good points but I think a better lesson from this crash would
* be how to decide when you've blown the landing and go around.

It take time to know how to land a plane. It takes longer to know when not
to land a plane.

Franklin wrote
It take time to know how to land a plane. It takes longer to know when
not
to land a plane.

Good point. Note to CFIs doing BFIs -- at least once when your client
is deep in the flare, command "Go around". It would be a way of
reminding us the throttle may sometimes have to be advanced when we
are planning to land.

Really good point. I'm currently a student pilot (only had 1st solo on
7/4/10), and before the solo, my CFI did exactly that, whilst right in
the flare, he, in a conversational tone, said, "Go around." Proudly,
I was on it, and smoothly increased throttle, and reduced flaps...

I hope you achieved a positive rate of climb before letting *any* flaps
go. *Then smoothly drop 'em away - just as per std. T/O for your
aircraft.

I did. I slowly added throttle - once the climb started, I grabbed the
flap lever and started letting out the flaps. That was proof of the
"muscle memory" concept, and the only the I EVER did to that point
when letting out flaps, was post landing and letting the ALL the way
out - so, it was just automatic - I simply pressed the button, and
slowly lowered to the floor!

Fortunatley, 8 years in the USMC taught me to always keep a level
head, so, even though I made a potentially fatal mistake, I kept
a level head, and 1 click at a time, and two clicks of flap back.
Thank you USMC! ::whew::



PS: in the comment you reply to above, what does BFI mean? - here in New
Zealand we call it a BFR (Bi-annual Flight Review) - and it's just that,
a review. *ie it's not a "test". *But that's irrelevant, just wondering
what the 'I' means for you folk over there.

I'm still kinda new. I only know it to be called a Bi-annual Flight Review
(BFR) - but I believe that since he was referring to the CFI - he meant the
Biannual Flight Instruction that might occur during the review. Someone
please correct me if I'm wrong.

I got to learn another lesson that day:

When going around, and you need to decrease the flap by 1 "click",
make sure you don't let out ALL the flap. Fortunately, the CFI
calmly said, "You let out all the flap; we're going to lose altitude
if you don't..." I already caught my mistake and put 2 clicks back
in of flaps. Now I'm always aware!

But this is why we train, right? I want to make ALL my mistakes
when the CFI is right there.

The silly/bad ones, yes *You'll still make mistakes when you are
fully certified w' your PPL - I'd like think they'll be minor ones.

It sounds like you were onto the flaps thing yourself - so that's good.

Yeah. We strive for perfection, but, I'm sure we're never perfect. I
actually made the same mistake a couple of weeks later on my second
solo T/O landing - one where I chose to Go Around. I was really glad it
happened that first time, b/c the second the lever hit the floor I
realized what I did, and brought the flaps back up again. Important,
b/c on this runway, there were trees pretty close to the end of the
runway.



In my second solo - simply flying the pattern for 3 T/O landings -
I exercised my own judgemnt to Go Around. I came in too fast, and
ground effect was making me float way too far - so, rather than
chance it, I simply "went around".

I almost had the urge to not do it. I was thinking, I know what
I'm doing, so, I can stick this. A split second later, I said
to myself that if I'm trying to convince myself that I can make
this, on a simple landing that is getting close, I better just
go around.

That will stick with me now. I know what to expect of myself and
the signs to look for - at least in this case.

Sound good to me - certainly made the right decision again. *Persevering
with a high-speed landing has taken many a front wheel off as the
"forced" landing turns into a nasty bunny-hop.

Thanks. I have much to learn; but I've been enjoying every second!

Cheers!

A couple of very minor points: most experienced pilots will tell you
it takes them a few seconds, maybe 5, to go from closed to open
throttle. It may not be as important in a 152, but as you move along
into bigger engines it really matters, you want to be gentle unless
circumstances dictate otherwise.

I dunno about the 152 - never flown a Cessna. I do try and go slow
and smooth, but I don't think I take 5 seconds. I'm concious of the
fact that taking an idling engine, in a cooling descent, could cause
sputting and loss of power if you punch it. Something you DO NOT
want to have happen if you're executing a Go Around. I'll see what
the CFI says for the Piper. He mentioned slow increase, but never
a time-frame to shoot for. Good stuff, thanks!

Excess speed is best burned off a wingspan above the surface, else the
additional efficiency of ground effect will float you into the next
county or state. This is especially true for low winged airplanes. If
you come in hot those few seconds at 30 feet will tell you if you'll
want to continue the landing or go around because there's not a
comfortable amount of runway left, and any headwind will likely be
greater there than closer to the ground.

That's what was happening! Being in a low-wing Cherokee, it was like
there was wall underneath. I'll wont nose down, and she wasn't descend-
ing (I applied a little up elevator but started to climb). With no
headwind, I was just like, this is no go - Go Around. I may have
even said it out load, I dunno!

As your experience increases, ask your CFI it it's ok to plan your
touch down point with respect to the turn off you want to use rather
than the numbers. This pilot at least considers his landing acceptable
when from closing the throttle entering the flare to making the turn
off I need to use neither throttle or brakes. The guys on short final
will appreciate you vacating the active quickly too.(Question for the
rest of you: if you get before a judge who happens to be a pilot, do
you think you'd get off with a suspended sentence because it was
justifiable homicide if the guy in the 152 ahead of you landed on the
numbers and taxied 2500 feet to the turnoff when the pattern was
crowded?)

I'll have to try that if we go to an airport with numbers. So far,
just soft, short field (turf) landings for me. Did do 3 T&Gs at
the local regional airport. That was pretty cool. The runway looked
absolutley GIGANTIC to me; compared to what I was used to. CFI
said that will give the impression you're closer than you are (our
grass field is tiny), and you may be higher than you should be.

I will consider landing for the turn off. Never thought abiout that
one before. No real opportunities to practice it yet.

Among (many) other things, the times I lend my airplane to friends
depends on if on check out they land that way.

Thanks for the insight. Very much appreciated. Its great to hear
from other pilots. There's almost no GA around here...

Cheers!
Scott

On 2010-08-06, Dave Doe wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2010-08-06, Dave Doe wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 2010-08-05, a wrote:
On Aug 5, 4:11*pm, Gemini wrote:
On 2010-08-01, anthony wrote:



On Jul 30, 11:24*am, Franklin
wrote:
Stephen! wrote:
a wrote in
news:9bc82c51-ad2d-48c4-bbd8-03eb64291845
@g35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

The likely lesson is, learn or relearn to control your energy!

* All good points but I think a better lesson from this crash would
* be how to decide when you've blown the landing and go around.

It take time to know how to land a plane. It takes longer to know when not
to land a plane.

Franklin wrote
It take time to know how to land a plane. It takes longer to know when
not
to land a plane.

Good point. Note to CFIs doing BFIs -- at least once when your client
is deep in the flare, command "Go around". It would be a way of
reminding us the throttle may sometimes have to be advanced when we
are planning to land.

Really good point. I'm currently a student pilot (only had 1st solo on
7/4/10), and before the solo, my CFI did exactly that, whilst right in
the flare, he, in a conversational tone, said, "Go around." Proudly,
I was on it, and smoothly increased throttle, and reduced flaps...

I got to learn another lesson that day:

When going around, and you need to decrease the flap by 1 "click",
make sure you don't let out ALL the flap. Fortunately, the CFI
calmly said, "You let out all the flap; we're going to lose altitude
if you don't..." I already caught my mistake and put 2 clicks back
in of flaps. Now I'm always aware!

But this is why we train, right? I want to make ALL my mistakes
when the CFI is right there.

In my second solo - simply flying the pattern for 3 T/O landings -
I exercised my own judgemnt to Go Around. I came in too fast, and
ground effect was making me float way too far - so, rather than
chance it, I simply "went around".

I almost had the urge to not do it. I was thinking, I know what
I'm doing, so, I can stick this. A split second later, I said
to myself that if I'm trying to convince myself that I can make
this, on a simple landing that is getting close, I better just
go around.

That will stick with me now. I know what to expect of myself and
the signs to look for - at least in this case.

Cheers

Some decades ago my CFII pounded into my head that during an
instrument approach the prudent rated pilot EXPECTS to have to go
around and is ready to push the throttle in and do that. He treats the
appearance of the runway environment as a happy accident. Your
experience suggests we should treat completing the landing as an
exception and be ready to 'go around' and if we do so we may be better
pilots. "Fly ready to execute in response to the exceptional
circumstance" is a good mantra.

I'd be happy to fly in the back seat if I knew the low time person at
the controls was prepared to say "I don't like the way this is shaping
up" and won't try force fit a maneuver when the initial conditions
have slipped from acceptable.

Nice call, nice post. Thanks.

Thanks, a!

I was actually going to write a tidbit that I heard somewhere
regarding the Go Around - that one should be on final expecting
to have to Go Around - but I couldn't quite remember how it was
worded - I'm glad you mentioned it!

Everything I have read so far suggests a big component that
contributes to accidents is the failure of the pilot to
believe that soemthing is happening that is beyond their
control to take action against. Like the pilot that had a tough
time keeping the plane straight on take off, and kept trying
to recover the situation instead of simply aborting the T/O,
takxiing back, and trying again - instead he ran off the side of
the runway, damaging the plane and injuring passengers.

There are enough uncontrollable factors involved in flying to
cause issues that I never want to be the guy that believes that
it can't happen; and fails to abort or go around or whatever
when the situation comes up.

It also taught me to strive for precision. I was 1 CFI lighter in
weight, and there was no headwind, and I shut down a tad late
which = Go Around.

Cheers!

Quite amazing huh, what a diffence minus one CFI does to a wee plane.
Hopefully you've quickly recognised the need to keep your approach just
the same, regardless of all-up-weight - and not do that by just nosing
down to do it - use the throttle (less of it), use the flaps - take the
last notch early if you seem high - get your approach profile right and
keep your speed exactly where you want it. The right airspeed is vital
for an easy transition to flare and landing. Often, in early training
days, when the approach is a bit off, not getting it corrected early
leads to chasing your airspeed (or approach profile, but usually the
former) - and yer just making life hard for yourself

Get onto your approach profile, get your speed right - adjust profile
(not airspeed) with throttle.

It's a good feeling turning finals and sitting on 1,500 RPM all the way
down without having to adjust throttle - yeah!, got that right! And
you will do it - regularly, as you gain experience.


That actually really amazed me. He warned me that the airplane would feel
noticeably different once he got out - that it would be real easy to
come in too fast. The first hint was how the plane simply lept off the
runway waaay sooner than I was used to! I had no idea just how much
it changes things - that 200# in the right seat.

What a rush that first solo was. I thought I was going to have fear, but
I didn't! I was surprised. I even asked myself why I wasn't, and realized
I had already done it over 20 times already - and several w/o ANY CFI
commentary...so, I knew I could do it. It just stayed in my head, if I
had any issues, simply go around...go around until it feels right if
need be.

Yep. My CFI actually told me to observe the field when I turn to base -
you can tell right there if your glide slope is off - if you're too high,
too, too far, too close, and you can start to fix it right there - but
every time should be the same approach - the way the field looks, the
way the runway looks should all look the same on each one. They're close,
but not prefect, right now. Every time they get better.

My CFI has taught me pitch=speed and throttle=altitude.

That's absolutely correct - indeed, after I posted, I was going to
'correct' myself - attitude for speed, throttle down or up hard to
correct glide path - then you should be able to set 1,500 again. Adjust
as necessary, sorta thing.


We do full stall landings - never NEVER point the nose down on landing
gotta just let her drop out of ground effect. That's why I went around.
I was floating - and there was no way I was going to point the nose
down. Any more up elevator, and I started climbing. I hit PONR for
touchdown, and executed a Go Around w/o hesitation. I was very
happy I did, but very rattled that I had to. That did, however,
serve to make the next pattern much better.

Lots of little throttle adjustments on the way down. So far, I've done
pretty well on airspeed - in this case, I was too high, and shut the
throttle down too late (so had lots of excess energy)

Its a blast when it all works - OH AND TRIM. Trim is definately your
friend. Until i started lessons, I would have never guessed how
helpful trim can be.

Thanks, Dave, for the feedback. Every bit helps. I'm devouring every bit of
info I can right now. Student book, magazines, websites and now, for
some actual pilot feedback (I'm the only pilot I know ), Usenet.

Sounds like you are doing well - and congrats on your first solo - it's
quite a buzz. Personally, I think the best buzz I got out of my
training days was my first solo cross-country. I'm glad there were no
cockpit voice recorders to hear my yee-hahs!

Thanks! I thought I would be nervous - but I was too focused to be nervous.
Once I got back to the hangar, shutdown, and writing downs the Hobbs, I
started shaking like a leaf - almost couldn't right. That's when I real-
ized just how jazzed I actually was.

I'm *really* looking forward to the X_Country. After all, that's a big
reason why we fly, right? I'm sure the 1st solo XC will be even more
exciting.

Scott

"Gemini" wrote

Thanks! I thought I would be nervous - but I was too focused to be
nervous.
Once I got back to the hangar, shutdown, and writing downs the Hobbs, I
started shaking like a leaf - almost couldn't right. That's when I real-
ized just how jazzed I actually was.

I'm *really* looking forward to the X_Country. After all, that's a big
reason why we fly, right? I'm sure the 1st solo XC will be even more
exciting.

Do you suppose after being jazzed, you could take the time to trim the old
responses? Both of you in the conversation would be much appreciated if you
would do that little thing for the rest of us reading the thread.

And I was the one to post it, but everyone else was thinking it. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

Hi,


In article ,
wrote:
Do you suppose after being jazzed, you could take the time to trim the old
responses? Both of you in the conversation would be much appreciated if you
would do that little thing for the rest of us reading the thread.

And I was the one to post it, but everyone else was thinking it. ;-)

I was just about to do the same myself

Andy

On 2010-08-07, Morgans wrote:

"Gemini" wrote

snip
Do you suppose after being jazzed, you could take the time to trim the old
responses? Both of you in the conversation would be much appreciated if you
would do that little thing for the rest of us reading the thread.

And I was the one to post it, but everyone else was thinking it. ;-)

You bet! My apologies - especially considering that at that
point we were way off topic; I should have known better.

Regards,
Scott

"Gemini" wrote

You bet! My apologies - especially considering that at that
point we were way off topic; I should have known better.

Off topic is a way of life around here, it seems. Occasionally going down a
different trail is expected.

Others are less likely to mind, if it is done politely, though! ;-)
--
Jim in NC