Records Show Bush Guard Commitment Unmet

I don't see how Colonel Olds could chew your butt in 1974 or 1975 if he had
been promoted to Brigadier in 1968.

Because I always think of people as a certain rank - I have been looking at his
photo on my den wall for the past twenty years showing him as a Colonel, so
that's how I refer to him. At 12 or 13, I wasn't that adept at military rank
identification -- he was already familiar to me due to his WWII and VN exploits
and for whatever reason, my memory fixed his rank as Colonel, and I never had a
reason to go back and correct my faulty identification.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

You might take the USAF's word for it if you won't take anyone else's:

Yeah, Brooks - I have a long history on this newsgroup of not accepting
corrections.

"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Jarg"
confessed the following:

And I answered your question, you just don't want to hear my answer.

No...I completely understand your answer. I'm not afraid of your
opinion.

I think President Bush and VIce President Cheney are doing a great job

This is not a surprise to me either. I'm convinced they ****ed up by
invading Iraq. I'm convinced our economy has suffered with them at the
helm. Our status as world leader is in the ****ter.



You are entitled to your opinions no matter how incorrect they are.


No, as you guess earlier, I just don't care.

No surprise. The surprising part is that you exhibit ZERO intellectual
interest it what might cause this overwhelming disapproval of shrub
and dick...even in the UK. 800 pound gorillas might not care, but
folks thinking shrub and dick are world leaders should.



Oh, I know very well what it causing this. I grew up overseas and lived in
Europe as an adult. It is a mixture of a anti-American propaganda that puts
our press's to shame, envy, and fear of our power as a nation. It has been
present to verying degrees for as long as I can remember. I'm sure every
leading nation (Rome, Great Britain, Spain, etc) have had to deal with
similar attitudes from the rest of the world.
As for your snide remarks about my intellectual curiosity, the are the
typical condescention of your ilk - you still have to believe that people
with views different from you are in some way inferior. The good news is
you are probably bright enough to eventually grow out of it.


I also suspect that you did NOT note the Univesity of Maryland (not
located in Europe the last time I checked) was a participant in the
polling.


So????

The point...it was NOT just a European poll. It was international. You
make repeated references to Europe, but the sentitment is
international.



Regardless, it is not a poll of the President's constituency.


I also understand that you could careless if **every single
non-american human being** on this planet disapproves of shrub and
dick.



Got that right!


I competely disagree with your idea that President Bush should try to win
some worldwide popularity contest so the United States can provide world
leadership.

This ain't about winning a popularity contest. But you can't be a
world leader if other nations refuse to follow your "lead." You're
simply marching to your own drummer. That is what shrub and dick are
doing. They are not leading the world. You can abandon dimplomacy and
take unilateral action in the name of self interest...just don't get
upset with other nations for their refusal to applaud or participate.

His job is to work for US interests.

Absolutely...I and many other of the citizens of this fine country
think shrub and dick have "****ed up." While his intentions might be
to work for our best interests...he failed miserably. But hey, he's
got god on his side, or would that be the islamist ****s?



Hey, is this Let's Spout Every Left Wing Cliche About The Religious Right We
Can Think Of Day? I must have missed the memo! Anyway, many other fine
citizens will disagree with you and reeelect President Bush and
Vice-President Cheney.


And anyway, true leaders often have to make unpopular decisions.

Sure, and if nobody follows your lead, you're simply acting like the
800 pound gorilla. You can do it, but at some point our fine country
will NEED the support and cooperation of those nations we ****ed off.

Robey


Being the 800 lb gorilla beats the alternatives we have had.
Multilateralism only works when the interests of the various parties align.
This was not the case in Iraq.

Jarg

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Jarg"
confessed the following:

Oh, I know very well what it causing this. I grew up overseas and lived in
Europe as an adult.

Hey don't feel like the Lone Ranger there pardner, I lived in France
and the PI as a kid, Germany and Korea as an adult...

It is a mixture of a anti-American propaganda that puts
our press's to shame, envy, and fear of our power as a nation.

They report...their readers/viewers decide. It's the FoxNews way,
wouldn't you say? The WMD, al-Qaeda links, Nuke program reasons were
proven to be incorrect WRT Iraq. That's hardly propaganda, that's just
how it happened.

As for your snide remarks about my intellectual curiosity, the are the
typical condescention of your ilk - you still have to believe that people
with views different from you are in some way inferior.

Oh you misunderstood. Not meant to be condescending in any way. Your
initial salvo was simply "who cares what Europeans think." Your
response...finally...on this third exchange is much more. I think you
are neither superior nor inferior, you simply resonded with an
"uninterested" retort.

Regardless, it is not a poll of the President's constituency.

Running around in circles, here.

Hey, is this Let's Spout Every Left Wing Cliche About The Religious Right We
Can Think Of Day?

Wow...ONE remark comparing god is on shrub's side to the islamist
****s' "god willing" doesn't even come close. I have no use for either
POV, both are equally invalid IMO. One guy prays for god's help to
destroy his enemy and the other guy prays to this same god to destroy
his enemy.

Being the 800 lb gorilla beats the alternatives we have had.

Naah. Getting tied up in a guerilla war with a bunch of muslims is a
lousy alternative. Trying to foist american style democracy in the
middle of SWA sounds good on paper, but will prove to be problematic
IMO. We're the ****ing infidels to muslims. I don't think they'll be
impressed with stories of Thomas Jefferson, or John Locke's treatise
of government.

Multilateralism only works when the interests of the various parties align.
This was not the case in Iraq.

shrub ****ed away ALL of the international goodwill we as a nation
received after 9/11. The rationale for invading Iraq changed several
times, to the final justification being, "we've freed 25 million
people." Meanwhile 43 million americans are without health insurance.
The "uniter" has become the "divider."

If shrub is re-elected America will have one long row to hoe.

Robey

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...

You might take the USAF's word for it if you won't take anyone else's:

Yeah, Brooks - I have a long history on this newsgroup of not accepting
corrections.

Well, if you are going to persist in this "Olds was commanding a unit at
Luke in the early seventies" bit in the face of the cold, hard facts of his
own bio, then you are well on your way to acheiving an Art-like status,
which is not something to be really proud of IMO. But hey, to each his own.

Brooks

Well, if you are going to persist in this "Olds was commanding a unit at
Luke in the early seventies" bit in the face of the cold, hard facts of his
own bio,

I've already said I don't remember what year it was, but the event isn't some
wistful fantasy. Its difficult to imagine who I am confusing him with - my CAP
squadron visited Luke several times in the 1970s and he was one of my childhood
heroes. I know that during one of those boyhood visits, a man I am still
convinced to be the commander of the 555th yelled at me for being in 'his
readyroom'. The gun cam photos on the wall had Olds' name on them - during
that tour, we were heard plenty about him and until this day, I was positive
that he was the man that barked at me. I've seen General Olds several times
since, although only one or two other times in person, and I always believed it
was the same guy from that day at Luke. I explained why I got the rank wrong
- I guess I should tape General stars on the photo he sent my son.

then you are well on your way to acheiving an Art-like status,
which is not something to be really proud of IMO. But hey, to each his own.

Ahh, I see -- strictly no mistakes allowed. This reminds me a bit of the six
year argument that followed my post concerning a torpedo that broached at the
bottom of our helicopter. I got ripped on regular occasions and folks made it
clear that what I remembered simply couldn't happen. Then a photo showed up of
the same model of torpedo some 20-40 in the air, following a broach. Someplace
among my CAP unit's history, there is a faded photo of the 307th drill team,
standing with Robin Olds. If I had any way to track down the Woodruffs or
Rosemary Grzowski, I could share it. Like that photo of the leaping torpedo,
it'll turn up. Until then, I will accept that Robin Olds wasn't there.

Gordon.

Robey Price wrote:

I never get tired of admiring
the terrain and wondering....

Wow, that's like..."Operational"!!!
[or "Aerospace", in a previous era]


I think "slam dunk"
arrivals are pretty operational,
as are single engine landings....

Oh, I thoroughly agree, Robey: single engine landings in the 757 _are_
pretty much the same as single engine landings in the F-100, for
example. About the same degree of interest is shown by the participants,
and the outcome is usually not seriously in doubt. Heart rate is about
the same -- yeah, I'd say they are about equally non-events, most of the
time.

But I don't know about those "slam dunk" arrivals: they'll take a lot
out of a man. The toughest thing about flying the 757 is getting new
F/Os to believe what is about to happen to them as they start the
letdown for LAX. Why, setting there watching the poor F/O trying to
program the jet to do what she could barely do by hand-flying it is
enough to get a guy laughing so hard he damn near spills his coffee.


CAT II/III landings, and Resolution Advisories from TCAS in the
traffic pattern....

God, Robey, how do you stand the mental strain?


...I'd bet you a million bucks that Mario would [work for Greyhound]
in a heartbeat if it were the only way he could keep driving.

I'd bet the few dollars in my pocket right now that he'd think you were
an idiot and he'd probably say so, but go ahead and ask him.


...flying fighters was fun, but so
is the 757...and it has a mission.

The toughest thing about flying a fighter would be what exactly, Robey?
Maybe hunting around for a mission? And especially one that gives you a
chance to wonder about the early settlers or watch the Northern Lights?
Yeah, that part could be a challenge.

I think I can hear Rasimus snorting and mumbling something best left
unwritten, all the way over here.


Jack

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
Well, if you are going to persist in this "Olds was commanding a unit at
Luke in the early seventies" bit in the face of the cold, hard facts of
his
own bio,

I've already said I don't remember what year it was, but the event isn't
some
wistful fantasy. Its difficult to imagine who I am confusing him with -
my CAP
squadron visited Luke several times in the 1970s and he was one of my
childhood
heroes. I know that during one of those boyhood visits, a man I am still
convinced to be the commander of the 555th yelled at me for being in 'his
readyroom'. The gun cam photos on the wall had Olds' name on them -
during
that tour, we were heard plenty about him and until this day, I was
positive
that he was the man that barked at me. I've seen General Olds several
times
since, although only one or two other times in person, and I always
believed it
was the same guy from that day at Luke. I explained why I got the rank
wrong
- I guess I should tape General stars on the photo he sent my son.

then you are well on your way to acheiving an Art-like status,
which is not something to be really proud of IMO. But hey, to each his
own.

Ahh, I see -- strictly no mistakes allowed.

No, mistakes are allowed; we all make them, and most of us generally own up
to them when they are pointed out with good evidence. Art does not, and your
initial response to everyone who pointed out yours in this case indicate
your reluctance--maybe not yet at Art-like levels, but well on the way.

This reminds me a bit of the six
year argument that followed my post concerning a torpedo that broached at
the
bottom of our helicopter. I got ripped on regular occasions and folks
made it
clear that what I remembered simply couldn't happen. Then a photo showed
up of
the same model of torpedo some 20-40 in the air, following a broach.
Someplace
among my CAP unit's history, there is a faded photo of the 307th drill
team,
standing with Robin Olds. If I had any way to track down the Woodruffs or
Rosemary Grzowski, I could share it. Like that photo of the leaping
torpedo,
it'll turn up. Until then, I will accept that Robin Olds wasn't there.

So now it is not a case of him allegedly commanding the Triple Nickel at the
time in question, as you originally claimed to vividly remember, but a case
of just "well, he *was* there"? I can see why you feel a distinct connection
with Kerry these days--this is beginning to sound a bit like his
"Cambodia-seared-I-said-*seared*-into-my-memory" bit, which then of course
became, "Well, I was in the area *between* the borders" before becoming
"Maybe I have the date wrong", all of which have been brought into further
doubt by his last in-country journal entry where he said he really wondered
what it was like on the far side of that Cambode border... You bring up the
torpedo issue--great. The one I recall from you was your "No way anybody is
going to use armor in urban areas" argument--recent events in both Iraq and
the West Bank/Gaza point to the fallacy of that stance. But hey, be like Art
if you want, and refuse to ackowledge when you are wrong--that is your
decision to make.

Brooks


Gordon.

On 11 Sep 2004 07:11:31 GMT, nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

I've already said I don't remember what year it was, but the event isn't some
wistful fantasy. Its difficult to imagine who I am confusing him with - my CAP
squadron visited Luke several times in the 1970s and he was one of my childhood
heroes. I know that during one of those boyhood visits, a man I am still
convinced to be the commander of the 555th yelled at me for being in 'his
readyroom'. The gun cam photos on the wall had Olds' name on them - during
that tour, we were heard plenty about him and until this day, I was positive
that he was the man that barked at me. I've seen General Olds several times
since, although only one or two other times in person, and I always believed it
was the same guy from that day at Luke. I explained why I got the rank wrong
- I guess I should tape General stars on the photo he sent my son.

Without getting between you and Kevin who appear to be having a lot of
good ol' classic RAM fun, let me state that Robin was not stationed at
Luke in the '70s and was not a member or squadron commander of the
Nickel.

Note that the 555th is a squadron--a unit size would be commanded by a
Lt. Col, not an O-6 or BG. Even when he was in SEA as a Colonel, Robin
commanded the 8th Wing, not the 555th which was at Udorn.

And, just as an aside, I'm not sure that I've ever been in a USAF
squadron in the periof mid-60's through late '80s that had a
"readyroom." There were "briefing rooms", the "lounge", the "ops area"
or "ops counter" (where all good guys know you don't stand, you must
lean on it) and maybe the "squadron briefing area".

But, it isn't inconceivable that visiting Luke at the time, you might
have encountered Robin on some sort of visit as well.

You're fortunate to have met one of the great ones.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Jack
confessed the following:

Wow, that's like..."Operational"!!!
[or "Aerospace", in a previous era]

Uh, no...that's part of the wonder and awe some folks can experience
while flying. Flying airliners is all about money (their payckeck) to
some folks, but some of us also fly little bitty airplanes on days
off. Revenue flying is operational...getting to smile 'cause you love
flying is just a bonus. Sounds silly to you, but lots of folks envy me
'cause I smile when I go to work.

God, Robey, how do you stand the mental strain?

Got be tough...takes a great deal of intestinal fortitude...and the
right seniority number. Just think of me as a manly man, doing manly
things in a manly manner.

...I'd bet you a million bucks that Mario would [work for Greyhound]
in a heartbeat if it were the only way he could keep driving.

I'd bet the few dollars in my pocket right now that he'd think you were
an idiot and he'd probably say so, but go ahead and ask him.

Send him over after you two have dinner tonight.

The toughest thing about flying a fighter would be what exactly, Robey?

Well since I never flew combat...in the Phantom, I thought night AAR
in the wx was sporting, as was a no-**** single engine approach. I
thought compressor stalls at FL450 during Viper FCFs was sporting, as
was landing min fuel in a snow storm after diverting. Then again,
intramural crud at the O'Club bar on friday nights was certainly more
physical.

Gosh Jack...wanna let me play, now?

Maybe hunting around for a mission? And especially one that gives you a
chance to wonder about the early settlers or watch the Northern Lights?
Yeah, that part could be a challenge.

I think I can hear Rasimus snorting and mumbling something best left
unwritten, all the way over here.

Everybody's got their own little sack of rocks to tote around. Maybe
he's singing Monty Python's "Lumberjack" song.

Hugs and Kisses...stud.

robey