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#41
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but its high clouds for the most part, you dont get the clouds covering the mountains like you had
this last week or so. Doug Rinks wrote: Not exactly.. Phoenix gets monsoons nearly every night during the summer. That surely counts as IMC. Doug Jeff wrote in message ... ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me. no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there. |
#42
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Did you write the following?
"I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing." "so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds" "then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2" "then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight" Mike MU-2 "Jeff" wrote in message ... when did I complain about flying in the clouds? who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds? I think you misread some things. Mike Rapoport wrote: Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job. If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy on a quiet freq. Mike MU-2 "Jeff" wrote in message ... and how was I not prepared ? Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business filing, requesting or flying IFR. Mike MU-2 "Jeff" wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#43
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I had no problems when he gave me my clearance, was it nasty, yes it was, but it
was not uncomfortable nor did I ever feel like I was in danger, the problems I had that were weather related only lasted long enough for me to take corrective action. We dont see much weather like that and when we do not many people fly in it because of the chance of icing. Did I have a good plan yes I did, did I have options, yes I did, could I have gotten out and went to one of my 2 alternates, yes I could have. Did I want to ..no, my car reservation was at the airport I intended to land at and all I needed was my clearance so I could go through the clouds and get to my destination. Could the controller have been a little bit better, knowing the weather was what it was and since I had a flight plan on file and gave me the clearance..yes he could have. Martin Kosina wrote: and how was I not prepared ? Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business filing, requesting or flying IFR. Mike MU-2 I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point, even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-) I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling around in icy tops is a concern, let them know. Martin |
#44
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I was not dependent on them granting my every wish nor was I dependent on
anything except being able to land. I guess my problem was decending in the first place when he said he was looking for my clearance and told to do so assuming he would pull it up. He damn sure pulled it up quick when I made my last call to him, he didnt even need to ask my tail number again or any other information, so it appears to me had had access to it the entire time and just did not want to mess with it. Mike Rapoport wrote: To expand on Martin's correct interpretation of what I meant (but perhaps didn't express well), you shouldn't be dependent on ATC being able to accommodate your every wish, particularly in class B airspace. If you really can't fly in clouds because of icing, then remain VFR. It isn't a "screwup" on ATC's part that they can't let a pilot fly any heading and altitude that he wishes, it is the pilots"screwup" that he is dependent on them doing so. Mike MU-2 "Martin Kosina" wrote in message om... and how was I not prepared ? Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business filing, requesting or flying IFR. Mike MU-2 I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point, even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-) I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling around in icy tops is a concern, let them know. Martin |
#45
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and how do you know it was busy ?
were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another assumption on your part? Mike Rapoport wrote: Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to descend to your destination in busy class B airspace! Mike MU-2 "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message ... Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business filing, requesting or flying IFR. Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds, and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no business flying IFR. Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine. Matt |
#46
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the traffic alert came about 20 minutes after the clearance.
you fishing to look for the controller to be 100% right which we all know is not always the case. wrote: Jeff wrote: another main problem I had was him letting another plane get so close in IMC that he had to give me a traffic alert. what happened to this seperation I was suppose to be getting. You pushed him and he probably tried to fit you in, which resulted in the traffic aleart. Have you ever visited the TRACON, plugged in, and asked about the handoff procedures from center to approach control for IFR arrivals? |
#47
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Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being busy. There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military or other GA traffic either. Mike MU-2 "Jeff" wrote in message ... and how do you know it was busy ? were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another assumption on your part? Mike Rapoport wrote: Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to descend to your destination in busy class B airspace! Mike MU-2 "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message ... Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business filing, requesting or flying IFR. Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds, and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no business flying IFR. Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine. Matt |
#48
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#49
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Snowbird" wrote in message om... Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be doing a lot of coordination by phone. So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger. If he's got aircraft on other frequencies you'll hear his transmissions to those other aircraft on your frequency, you just won't hear the other aircraft. Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought it wasn't necessarily true. In any event, if he's spending time on the 'phone coordinating, we won't hear that. Cheers, Sydney |
#50
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Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true. Not i my experience. I have actually heard the controller's transmission stop midway thru as he was talking to an airplane on another freq....switched to the freq he was talking to the other airplane on and hear him finish his transmission. Most of the time they will broadcast on all the freqs they are working, but not always. -John *You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North American* |
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