Expanded World Class

If you refer to

http://www.fai.org/gliding/bureau2006_2

minutes of the FAI Gliding Commission Bureau meeting,
you will find:

'A2.8 Discussion on Class structure in the “light-end”
RS explained the problem we have at the light end,
where a fairly limited number of aircraft are divided
into 3 categories.

It was decided to work towards a solution where the
existing World Class was extended to include the other
gliders after 2009. This could e.g. be with a max take
off weight of 300 kg, including motor gliders, and
possibly with max. 13 meter wingspan. The PW-5 should
be allowed under grandfather rules.
Action: RS and AR to develop year-2 proposal for extension
of the World Class after 2009.
Action: BH to check the FAI rules about changing a
class definition.

It was not considered worth creating a competition
class for the “less than 80 kg” class.'

This seems to indicate that from 2009 aircraft other
than PW-5s will be eligible to compete in a new World
Class. Heads up for Sparrowhawks and Russias, among
others.

Ian

On Sep 29, 3:22 pm, Ian Cant
wrote:
If you refer to

http://www.fai.org/gliding/bureau2006_2

minutes of the FAI Gliding Commission Bureau meeting,
you will find:

'A2.8 Discussion on Class structure in the "light-end"
RS explained the problem we have at the light end,
where a fairly limited number of aircraft are divided
into 3 categories.

It was decided to work towards a solution where the
existing World Class was extended to include the other
gliders after 2009. This could e.g. be with a max take
off weight of 300 kg, including motor gliders, and
possibly with max. 13 meter wingspan. The PW-5 should
be allowed under grandfather rules.
Action: RS and AR to develop year-2 proposal for extension
of the World Class after 2009.
Action: BH to check the FAI rules about changing a
class definition.

It was not considered worth creating a competition
class for the "less than 80 kg" class.'

This seems to indicate that from 2009 aircraft other
than PW-5s will be eligible to compete in a new World
Class. Heads up for Sparrowhawks and Russias, among
others.

Ian


Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for $120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

On Oct 3, 3:52 pm, wrote:
Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for $120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

Richard,

The original idea behind the World Class has been a failure. That much
is obvious (to me) and should be acknowledged. We need to try a new
and different idea. I can see opening the PW5 only contests to
similar designs to increase the number of gliders. More gliders would
mean a better competition.

I personally would propose the following criteria:

a) Fairly strict 1 design.
b) Decent performance for the cheapest cost.

For decent performance I think 35/1 would be good enough. Lower
performance is just frustrating when trying XC.

I would not "dumb down" the design to accommodate early solo pilots,
but aim for entry level comp pilots.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

On Oct 3, 5:10 pm, toad wrote:
On Oct 3, 3:52 pm, wrote:

Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for $120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

Richard,

The original idea behind the World Class has been a failure. That much
is obvious (to me) and should be acknowledged. We need to try a new
and different idea. I can see opening the PW5 only contests to
similar designs to increase the number of gliders. More gliders would
mean a better competition.

I personally would propose the following criteria:

a) Fairly strict 1 design.
b) Decent performance for the cheapest cost.

For decent performance I think 35/1 would be good enough. Lower
performance is just frustrating when trying XC.

I would not "dumb down" the design to accommodate early solo pilots,
but aim for entry level comp pilots.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

Todd,
OK, some of the aspects of original idea had to be a failure and the
whole undertaking simply didn't work.
But, can you tell which specs were wrong?

* substantially lower costs than then-current new gliders
* easy & safe handling in the air and on the ground
* a single design, stabilized for a period of years
* performance sufficient for badges & challenging competition
* simple construction
* suitable for clubs, private owners & early solo pilots.

What would be your new World Class glider ?
Try to stay below $ 60,000.-please.
Richard/ PW-5/N153PW

On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, wrote:
On Oct 3, 5:10 pm, toad wrote:



On Oct 3, 3:52 pm, wrote:

Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for $120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

Richard,

The original idea behind the World Class has been a failure. That much
is obvious (to me) and should be acknowledged. We need to try a new
and different idea. I can see opening the PW5 only contests to
similar designs to increase the number of gliders. More gliders would
mean a better competition.

I personally would propose the following criteria:

a) Fairly strict 1 design.
b) Decent performance for the cheapest cost.

For decent performance I think 35/1 would be good enough. Lower
performance is just frustrating when trying XC.

I would not "dumb down" the design to accommodate early solo pilots,
but aim for entry level comp pilots.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

Todd,
OK, some of the aspects of original idea had to be a failure and the
whole undertaking simply didn't work.
But, can you tell which specs were wrong?

* substantially lower costs than then-current new gliders

Great.

* easy & safe handling in the air and on the ground

Great

* a single design, stabilized for a period of years

Great

* performance sufficient for badges & challenging competition

Great idea, but the PW5 performance is not enough.

* simple construction

Great

* suitable for clubs, private owners & early solo pilots.

Bad idea to require suitability for early solo pilot. This led to
unneeded "dumbing down" of the design. Specific features such as the
nose wheel and non-retractable landing gear. It also leads to
sacrificing performance for easier handling.

I think that the design point to aim for is a glider that a newly
licensed pilot, who has done some XC in a club glider and wants a
glider to fly, would find roughly comparable to a Grob 102, Std
Cirrus, LS4. The possiblilty of one design competition would be a
good additional incentive to buy the "2nd generation" world class
glider. But the glider would have to be similar in performance to
other gliders that the new XC pilot might also want.


What would be your new World Class glider ?
Try to stay below $ 60,000.-please.
Richard/ PW-5/N153PW


Maybe the new Sparrowhawk or Silent has enough performance for cheap
enough ? Maybe build Std Cirrus's or LS4's. Simplify the
construction if needed. But if a design can not be found that has
sufficiently good performance for a low enough price, then the world
class idea will never work.

It doesn't have to be 50/1, but it does have to be good enough that
weak days are not so painful.

Todd
3S

Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for
$120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

If I recall correctly, the major aim of the World Class
concept was to make competition soaring more accessible
by keeping the cost down. The lower performance level
and the single-design concepts arose from this aim
[one design to allow mass production and the savings
therefrom]. Unfortunately the masses did not buy the
PW-5.

Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships. A set of rules can be built around
the existing designs without denying entry to newer
and better designs. Contrary to advertised beliefs,
30:1 is plenty for X-C [20:1 is plenty for the 1-26
guys].

But how do we keep the cost under control ? Well,
my only semi-facetious suggestion would be to have
a rule that the top three in any National-level contest
have to offer their ships, fully equipped as flown,
for sale at a fixed price immediately afterwards.
Take $40,000 as a random number. Will anyone really
want to buy a championship with a $60,000 ship if he
has to sell it for $40,000 afterwards ? It would be
snapped up. But the $20,000 ship that wins would probably
not be sellable at $40,000 and the owner could keep
it to fly another day.

As a reference point, the Sparrowhawk is perhaps the
highest performance 13m ship around, and I believe
it still sells for below $40,000. And my aging Russia
would be competitive; it cost me $19,000 new a few
years ago; even with a trailer and flight recorder
and oxygen etc and CA sales tax, it still came in at
well below $25,000.

It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.

Ian

Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships.


It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.


It's nice to hear there is now consideration to expand the world class
beyond the PW5. I've enjoyed the last two Region 9 competitions flying
my L33. The Solo was designed as a candidate for the world class one
design and, as of this year, has the identical hadicap as the PW5 for
SSA Sports class and OLC. Hopefully it will also be considered as
eligible for the expanded world class.

Horst
L33

On Oct 3, 10:25 pm, wrote:
Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships.
It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.

It's nice to hear there is now consideration to expand the world class
beyond the PW5. I've enjoyed the last two Region 9 competitions flying
my L33. The Solo was designed as a candidate for the world class one
design and, as of this year, has the identical hadicap as the PW5 for
SSA Sports class and OLC. Hopefully it will also be considered as
eligible for the expanded world class.

Horst
L33

Russia, Sparrowhawk, Apis, Silent, L33, PW-5....... you all are very
welcome in Club B .

Why you need to include them into World Class ?.Why pretend that
this odd bunch of gliders makes a One Design Class ? They are a very
different gliders. They do not have much in common. O, maybe except
for fact that nobody can make any profit on their production.
Leave the PW-5 alone. If it as a World Class die...it will die, let it
be. Possibly with a Club B we don't need a World Class at all.
Richard/ PW-5

Cheap with performance...then lets pitch the one design(which
is really who can trick out their ship the most and
gain L/d, thus defeating the concept) Run any ship
within certain handicaps...a range that go from Russias
and PW5 up to LS4? Keep the handicap.

One can try to get the cheapest glider with the best
handicap, or something a little more expensive that
takes a bigger hit. Not including LS4's in this group
would be a big mistake IMVHO, they are good performers
and relatively cheap used...is that not the objective?

Stewart Kissel wrote:
Cheap with performance...then lets pitch the one design(which
is really who can trick out their ship the most and
gain L/d, thus defeating the concept)

I don't think so, as the usual "tricks" won't add more than a few
percentage points, and are available to all of the competitors anyway.

In any case, the cost of these "tricks" is a lot less than the "tricks"
the manufacturers can add to their new gliders, and then the competitors
do the usual tricks in addition. New glider + usual tricks is a
significant gain in performance and cost.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org