Install a Garmin GNS430 or an "Apollo" GNS480 ?

Mike Rapoport wrote:
UPS was not Garmin's "main competitor". UPS had insignificant revenue,
didn't make money and really had to sell. Everybody complains about the
"loss of competition" but very few were buying UPS's products. The choice
was being aquired or disappearing.

The fact that UPS-AT was in bad shape (I don't know that they were,
but I'll take that as a given for the moment) doesn't take away from
the fact that they were Garmin's main competition.

Is there anybody else out there that was competing with Garmin for the
GA avionics market than UPS? Narco is dead. Northstar has pulled out
of aviation. King seems to have given up developing new products.
Collins is concentrating on the commercial market.

The sad fact is that the GA avionics market just isn't big enough to
support more than one major manufacturer, and Garmin seems to have
won.

Unless anyone here is privy to the information discussed in Garmin's
boardroom, we'll never know for sure. I think it was just that the price was
right for a buy-out. UPS wanted out of that business for a while.
Eliminating competition was probably one of many factors that played into
that decision.

Marco Leon
N36616

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
UPS was not Garmin's "main competitor". UPS had insignificant revenue,
didn't make money and really had to sell. Everybody complains about the
"loss of competition" but very few were buying UPS's products. The
choice
was being aquired or disappearing.

The fact that UPS-AT was in bad shape (I don't know that they were,
but I'll take that as a given for the moment) doesn't take away from
the fact that they were Garmin's main competition.

Is there anybody else out there that was competing with Garmin for the
GA avionics market than UPS? Narco is dead. Northstar has pulled out
of aviation. King seems to have given up developing new products.
Collins is concentrating on the commercial market.

The sad fact is that the GA avionics market just isn't big enough to
support more than one major manufacturer, and Garmin seems to have
won.

I would say that the 430 will likely be replaced by a next generation box,
not the 480. Likely, they will try to abandon the 480 first. There will
likely only be one upgrade path in the generation after next. (or even next
generation).

The reason I think this is that the two units are part of seperate divisions
at Garmin and the 430 unit is at the HQ, but the other is not. Also, the
430 has a much larger install base. Decisions to abandon old gear make
sense when the install base gets tiny, or when you can no longer get parts.
All these new units are now using parts that will become expensive or
irreplacable when the rest of the electronics industry no longer uses them.
Eventually, the cost of perceived badwill from dropping the older units will
be less than the cost of continued support.

They could possibly change their business model to a lease/subscription
model like Microsoft did, but the market is not really ready for it yet.
Besides, people in aviation want something that is dependable, and if you
tell me it will be replaced in 3 years, I have to wonder how well you built
it.

Also, Garmin has other competitors, but not many are doing nearly as well in
the light airplane world. Avidyne is now their biggest competitor. King,
Honeywell, and Chelton are coming after them as well. The guys doing
software for PC and Palm platforms are a threat. Microsoft could enter the
fray, and so could a few Japanese companies which would likely happen if
Toyota or Honda started building planes. So anyone thinking the UPS
acquisition should have been stopped has weak case in my mind.



"Al Marzo" wrote in message
...
Roy;
Get the newest and best you can afford. Garmin has a long history of
abandoning its older line and I'll suspect that's what will happen to
the 430. First, they'll upgrade the unit for about as much money as
the 480, then they'll just stop doing it. Secondly, all the rich guys
;-) will be taking their 430's out for the 480's and ebay will be
flooded with them. Then JA Air will be offering "factory
reconditioned" 430's which are really old factory stock to move them
out.

As I've stated before, the worst thing that could have happened was
that Garmin would be allowed to buy their competition.

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:58:35 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I was all ready to install a GNS 430 but now feeling that a GNS 480 may be
a
better option.
Although more expensive, I am getting the impression that the GNS 480 has
significant advantages.
It seems that UPS stole a lead on Garmin with their WAAS approved unit.
Now with Garmin owning the brand and the UPS unit being budged as the
Garmin
AT GNS 480 I am not sure which unit to install.
Will Garmin upgrade the 430's display and software to give it WAAS
capability or will they just upgrade the GNS 530 and leave the 430 a poor
relation ??
Over to the group to help me decide - Install a 430 or 480 ?

Roy Page [N5804F Archer II]
Beloit Ohio 44609

I don't think that an unprofitable holder of 10% of the market (guess) is
really a "major competitor" to the holder of 75% of the market. UPS AT was
attractive for a number of reasons including ADS-B which I believe will
become a big deal in the future. It also didn't make too much sense for a
package delivery company to be developing and manufacturing avionics.

The GNS 480 is a half step above the 430/530. It has WAAS and airways but
also has fairly obtuse operating logic. The 430/530 have an easy upgrade
path to the GNS 480 capibilities. I think that the next big retrofit
product is an integrated product (like G1000) that has an ethernet-like
serial interface.. Once you have the sensors and displays all talking to
each other, it will be cheap and easy to add features by adding another
sensor to the network along with a software change. The installed cost of
avionics will be much lower if there are only four wires to connect.

Mike
MU-2

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
UPS was not Garmin's "main competitor". UPS had insignificant revenue,
didn't make money and really had to sell. Everybody complains about the
"loss of competition" but very few were buying UPS's products. The
choice
was being aquired or disappearing.

The fact that UPS-AT was in bad shape (I don't know that they were,
but I'll take that as a given for the moment) doesn't take away from
the fact that they were Garmin's main competition.

Is there anybody else out there that was competing with Garmin for the
GA avionics market than UPS? Narco is dead. Northstar has pulled out
of aviation. King seems to have given up developing new products.
Collins is concentrating on the commercial market.

The sad fact is that the GA avionics market just isn't big enough to
support more than one major manufacturer, and Garmin seems to have
won.

"Dude" wrote in message
...


Also, Garmin has other competitors, but not many are doing nearly as well
in
the light airplane world. Avidyne is now their biggest competitor.

Yeah, except that when you consider that every Cirrus/Lancair ships with at
least a pair of 430's, it's not much of a competitor. It's as if every Chevy
truck shipped with a Ford engine. The Avidyne Entegra system may be nice to
fly behind but it is at least a generation behind the G1000, and will likely
continue to fall further behind as time goes by. If Avidyne can't do
something new and interesting within 2 years they're finished.

King,
Honeywell, and Chelton are coming after them as well. The guys doing
software for PC and Palm platforms are a threat. Microsoft could enter the
fray, and so could a few Japanese companies which would likely happen if
Toyota or Honda started building planes. So anyone thinking the UPS
acquisition should have been stopped has weak case in my mind.

As someone else mentioned, the market is not necessarily big enough. The
real strength of the G1000 is that it can be put into nearly any plane up to
light bizjets and perhaps beyond. This provides a base to spread the
development costs across.

I would love to see Toyota or Honda building planes, but then I used to
believe in the Easter Bunny too. Dunno about Toyota but I wouldn't be
shocked if we saw Honda enter the LSA market, given their experience with
ATVs, PWCs, and motorcycles. In any case, odds are whatever they build will
be proprietary to their planes and so not do the rest of us any good- kind
of like the G1000.

Best,
-cwk.

Yeah, except that when you consider that every Cirrus/Lancair ships with
at
least a pair of 430's, it's not much of a competitor. It's as if every
Chevy
truck shipped with a Ford engine. The Avidyne Entegra system may be nice
to
fly behind but it is at least a generation behind the G1000, and will
likely
continue to fall further behind as time goes by. If Avidyne can't do
something new and interesting within 2 years they're finished.


A good point, and it will be interesting to watch. However, Avidyne makes a
lot more on each of those planes than Garmin does. Garmin may be like
Microsoft or IBM in some ways, but not quite. Jeppessen on the other hand IS
Microsoft like in their monopoly and the pricing reflects it.


King,
Honeywell, and Chelton are coming after them as well. The guys doing
software for PC and Palm platforms are a threat. Microsoft could enter
the
fray, and so could a few Japanese companies which would likely happen if
Toyota or Honda started building planes. So anyone thinking the UPS
acquisition should have been stopped has weak case in my mind.

As someone else mentioned, the market is not necessarily big enough. The
real strength of the G1000 is that it can be put into nearly any plane up
to
light bizjets and perhaps beyond. This provides a base to spread the
development costs across.

I would love to see Toyota or Honda building planes, but then I used to
believe in the Easter Bunny too. Dunno about Toyota but I wouldn't be
shocked if we saw Honda enter the LSA market, given their experience with
ATVs, PWCs, and motorcycles. In any case, odds are whatever they build
will
be proprietary to their planes and so not do the rest of us any good- kind
of like the G1000.

Best,
-cwk.


I think you should be a bit less cynical about the G1000. The fact that
they are only selling to OEMs is really understandable. Garmin or another
company will doubtlessly be in the market in the next few years with Glass
upgrades for older models. Glass was available for experimentals before the
G1000. The economics has to work though. As time goes on, the easier and
cheaper it will be to do this.

Just keep in mind that they have been saying Terrain & WAAS for years. I'll
believe it when I see it.

Rant mode off, {|;-(

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.


N326DK

They have been showing both for quite a while, it is the FAA that is holding
things up.

Mike
MU-2

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." wrote in message
...
Just keep in mind that they have been saying Terrain & WAAS for years.
I'll believe it when I see it.

Rant mode off, {|;-(

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.


N326DK

I understand Victor's apprehension but the fact is that Garmin is installing
TAWS on the 530's as we speak (or type). Anyone out there have it done? I
imagine most of the people laying out the dough for a TAWS upgrade are doing
it as a business necessity.

Marco

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net...
They have been showing both for quite a while, it is the FAA that is
holding
things up.

Mike
MU-2

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." wrote in message
...
Just keep in mind that they have been saying Terrain & WAAS for years.
I'll believe it when I see it.

Rant mode off, {|;-(

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.


N326DK

I think that they start later this week. All turbine powered aircraft
certified with more than six passenger seats are required to have TAWS by
early 2005 (I forgot the exact date.) Mine is scheduled to go soon.

Mike
MU-2

"Marco Leon" mmleon(at)yahoo.com wrote in message
...
I understand Victor's apprehension but the fact is that Garmin is
installing
TAWS on the 530's as we speak (or type). Anyone out there have it done? I
imagine most of the people laying out the dough for a TAWS upgrade are
doing
it as a business necessity.

Marco

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net...
They have been showing both for quite a while, it is the FAA that is
holding
things up.

Mike
MU-2

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." wrote in message
...
Just keep in mind that they have been saying Terrain & WAAS for years.
I'll believe it when I see it.

Rant mode off, {|;-(

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.


N326DK