T-6 accident

In article ,
"Darkwing" theducksmailATyahoo.com wrote:



No it is an F14 doing a high speed pass just above the deck, then it banks
and a just explodes. It is kind if surreal like a Hollywood plane crash.


The airplane just blew up. As I remember the engine came apart. This
was on one of the Discovery Channel programs where they spent a bunch of
time on a carrier.

Big John wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
t:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with
Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Can you assess the problem?

What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the
horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he
continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent
further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him
considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a
classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a
roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy
didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess
out of my youtube fun!



Bertie


Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before
the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll
started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have
allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line
of flight.

6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the
bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience
with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off
line of flight.

7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid
slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird.

8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without
extra aileron.

9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I
didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow
bird down.

10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed
until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact.

Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from
start to finish.

OK, it's kind of hard to see it in relation to he horizon for a lot of
the roll. My own feeling is the nose was down too far during the first
quarter and then he was well to nose low during the inverted portion and
knew it, pushed hard and drew some drag, then panicked and tried to get
out with hard top rudder too early and pulled hard as soon as he passed
90 deg roll on the back side. It's been a while, but it;s a classic
student panic recovery from a botched roll.

Bertie

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:


"Big John" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble
with Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Can you assess the problem?

What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the
horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he
continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent
further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him
considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a
classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise
a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This
guy didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess
out of my youtube fun!



Bertie


Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was
before the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before
roll started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should
have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line
of flight.

Is there any evidence that he fed in pro-roll rudder in addition to
some elevator? That would explain both the nose dropping during the
roll and the rather abrupt course change.


doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just
not enough top rudder would be my guess.

Bertie

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with
Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Can you assess the problem?

What, with my browser or the accident?

lol

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon.
He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued
around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude
loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed
the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em
sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one
early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't.

I later saw your post equipment failure.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of
my youtube fun!

Bertie

Orbit Downloader
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:



The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess
out of my youtube fun!

Bertie

Orbit Downloader


Thanks I'll have a look


Bertie

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:48:25 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:


"Big John" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
t:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble
with Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Can you assess the problem?

What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the
horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he
continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent
further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him
considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a
classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise
a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This
guy didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess
out of my youtube fun!



Bertie


Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was
before the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before
roll started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should
have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line
of flight.

Is there any evidence that he fed in pro-roll rudder in addition to
some elevator? That would explain both the nose dropping during the
roll and the rather abrupt course change.


doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just
not enough top rudder would be my guess.

Bertie



Bertie

Reading all the posts and going back to and looking at strip again a
number of times, it is obvious that he put in a lot of up elevator at
the 270 degrees of roll. This is what turned the bird 90 degrees hard
port.

He also kept aileron in and bird continued to roll to almost a wings
level attitude before it hit the ground flat and ............

What he was thinking and trying to do I don't know. If he had
continued his roll to wings level and then up elevator he probably
would have just cleared the ground. Or if he had rolled another 45
degrees past the 270 and then hard up elevator he would have made it
ok.

It's easy to make surmises after the fact but my comments 'could'
explain what we can see in strip.

I just don't see a dish out.

End posting on this thread.


Big John

Big John wrote in
news

Bertie

Reading all the posts and going back to and looking at strip again a
number of times, it is obvious that he put in a lot of up elevator at
the 270 degrees of roll. This is what turned the bird 90 degrees hard
port.

He also kept aileron in and bird continued to roll to almost a wings
level attitude before it hit the ground flat and ............

What he was thinking and trying to do I don't know. If he had
continued his roll to wings level and then up elevator he probably
would have just cleared the ground. Or if he had rolled another 45
degrees past the 270 and then hard up elevator he would have made it
ok.

It's easy to make surmises after the fact but my comments 'could'
explain what we can see in strip.

Oh I don't doubt you, mostly I'm just thinking out loud.

I just don't see a dish out.

End posting on this thread.


Kay, thanks for that. I'm just trying to get my head back into the
frame.
I think it comes down to experience and training. When the **** hits the
fan your brain is reduced to something like reptilian proportians and
the only way you're going to do the right thing is if you have done it a
thousand times before and done it the right way and the wrong way..


Bertie

On Nov 18, 2:26 pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with
Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Can you assess the problem?

What, with my browser or the accident?

lol

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon.
He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued
around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude
loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed
the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em
sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one
early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't.

I later saw your post equipment failu

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of
my youtube fun!

Bertie

Orbit Downloader
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

What I see is: first half of roll looks fine; but - as he hits the
wings level inverted position, the nose is starting to drop. At this
point of the roll, he should be pushing. But he's starting to pull,
then he pulls some more as he goes through the 3rd quarter of the
roll, causing it to turn 90 degrees and fly into the ground. Only
thing that can make it turn like that is up elevator. Also, I don't
see any top rudder (right) which would have helped hold the nose up.
Basically, the same control movements would produce a 90 degree
rolling turn, inverted to upright, outside roll. I've done lots of
these on purpose and its really hard not to lose altitude. Sadly, he
didn't have any altitude availble to lose.

K l e i n

K l e i n wrote:
On Nov 18, 2:26 pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with
Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8
Can you assess the problem?
What, with my browser or the accident?
lol

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon.
He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued
around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude
loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed
the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em
sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one
early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't.
I later saw your post equipment failu

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of
my youtube fun!
Bertie
Orbit Downloader
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

What I see is: first half of roll looks fine; but - as he hits the
wings level inverted position, the nose is starting to drop. At this
point of the roll, he should be pushing. But he's starting to pull,
then he pulls some more as he goes through the 3rd quarter of the
roll, causing it to turn 90 degrees and fly into the ground. Only
thing that can make it turn like that is up elevator. Also, I don't
see any top rudder (right) which would have helped hold the nose up.
Basically, the same control movements would produce a 90 degree
rolling turn, inverted to upright, outside roll. I've done lots of
these on purpose and its really hard not to lose altitude. Sadly, he
didn't have any altitude availble to lose.

K l e i n
Just back pressure coming off the backside of the roll wouldn't have
yawed him in like that. Back pressure held in through the second knife
edge would have TURNED him in on his wingtip. He literally yawed himself
sideways coming off the back side and hit flat. I'm guessing he held in
the left (top) rudder and never made the rudder switch through inverted
then let it dish out with the now bottom rudder yawing him off the roll
axis as he came on through knife edge on the way down. Looked to me like
a classic mis-application of controls starting at inverted.


--
Dudley Henriques

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote

doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just
not enough top rudder would be my guess.

I looked at the rudder position as he completed the first 90 degrees of the
roll, and it looked like the rudder was completely neutral. Did you see
that, too?
--
Jim in NC