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#41
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T-6 accident
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: I can't either. I was dumbstruck when we heard what had happened. Ed knew better than to do that. He was always aggressive with his approach to aerobatics, but he knew the score, and he knew g loads. We all assumed there was some kind of pressure involved, or perhaps a tight time schedule. The rub of it is that all of us knew that it was exactly this kind of thing that gets you killed. Ed's reason for not waiting will always remain one of life's great unanswered questions for me. the word around was he said the he had "flown with worse" . Good lesson in that. If someone like that can screw up what about us mere mortals? That airplane was always immaculate. It's not like he was a shirt-tail out kind of guy. Bertie |
#42
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T-6 accident
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : I can't either. I was dumbstruck when we heard what had happened. Ed knew better than to do that. He was always aggressive with his approach to aerobatics, but he knew the score, and he knew g loads. We all assumed there was some kind of pressure involved, or perhaps a tight time schedule. The rub of it is that all of us knew that it was exactly this kind of thing that gets you killed. Ed's reason for not waiting will always remain one of life's great unanswered questions for me. the word around was he said the he had "flown with worse" . Good lesson in that. If someone like that can screw up what about us mere mortals? That airplane was always immaculate. It's not like he was a shirt-tail out kind of guy. Bertie "Flown with worse" in the business isn't a positive trait to posess and can end up being a fast trip to a hole in the ground. Unfortunately in Ed's case, it ended that way. My job has always been to keep pilots alive in the acro environment. I have to say that I never used Ed as a positive example. His kind of aggression toward aerobatics was just beyond my comfort limit. -- Dudley Henriques |
#43
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T-6 accident
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: "Flown with worse" in the business isn't a positive trait to posess and can end up being a fast trip to a hole in the ground. Unfortunately in Ed's case, it ended that way. My job has always been to keep pilots alive in the acro environment. I have to say that I never used Ed as a positive example. His kind of aggression toward aerobatics was just beyond my comfort limit. Interesting. As a kid I always thought he had it cracked. He didn't do instruction AFAIK, but if he did I would have been there... He used to roll inverted on takeoff as soon as he had clearance and his flying was always pretty energetic, allright. I got to see him practice a good bit and it was always very tidy, but in retrospect, as you say, he was agressive compared to many. I have to say, as a young fellow I emulated a lot of his stuff, and it was a major shock when he bought it. I suppose your view of him would have been from the opposite end of the spectrum back then! Bertie |
#44
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T-6 accident
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : "Flown with worse" in the business isn't a positive trait to posess and can end up being a fast trip to a hole in the ground. Unfortunately in Ed's case, it ended that way. My job has always been to keep pilots alive in the acro environment. I have to say that I never used Ed as a positive example. His kind of aggression toward aerobatics was just beyond my comfort limit. Interesting. As a kid I always thought he had it cracked. He didn't do instruction AFAIK, but if he did I would have been there... He used to roll inverted on takeoff as soon as he had clearance and his flying was always pretty energetic, allright. I got to see him practice a good bit and it was always very tidy, but in retrospect, as you say, he was agressive compared to many. I have to say, as a young fellow I emulated a lot of his stuff, and it was a major shock when he bought it. I suppose your view of him would have been from the opposite end of the spectrum back then! Bertie I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely conceived premise at best that some actually never shed . Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT simple! The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns worth emulating for those considering entering this venue. Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time. They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me to hear my voice I always stressed; "Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!" This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this person or that one is watching. Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for aerobatic pilots. Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly hard maneuvers for the camera. What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it. At least in this those of us in the business of flight safety were left a lesson to pass on to new pilots. -- Dudley Henriques |
#45
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T-6 accident
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely conceived premise at best that some actually never shed . Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT simple! I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station. The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns worth emulating for those considering entering this venue. Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time. They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me to hear my voice I always stressed; "Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!" Hm, yes. I never thougth this through before, but it rings true. I'm never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of inate wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart. This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this person or that one is watching. Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for aerobatic pilots. Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly hard maneuvers for the camera. Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy who has to much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitue and, I believe, have led to a habit of constant self appraisel that has served me well in just about any flying disciplne. IOW, experiece has eventually won out but I was lucky to have acquired it! What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it. Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane with a flat battery or something like that. in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man.. Bertie |
#46
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T-6 accident
"Viperdoc" wrote in news:474364d1$0$32502
: Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns out that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane. It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!" Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1 This is just a mind blowing accident. Sure you can do aerobatics in a non- aerobatic airplane ( he had apparently become enthralled with the Twin Beech performance at Sun n Fun) but how does someone even imagine he can make the leap into aerobatic flight this way? Bertie |
#47
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T-6 accident
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Viperdoc" wrote in news:474364d1$0$32502 : Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns out that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane. It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!" Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1 This is just a mind blowing accident. Wow. That pilot didn't make an isolated foolish mistake - the historical evidence indicates he was a fool from the beginning to the end. The tragedy is that four others died along with the fool. Found this AOPA article on the accident with the apt title "What was he thinking?": http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2007/sp0707.html |
#48
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T-6 accident
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely conceived premise at best that some actually never shed . Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT simple! I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station. It's simple really. Pilots exist for the most part as a specialized group. Even loners are part of the "group" By definition, flying is an acquired skill obtained through knowledge and experience. The "group" recognizes those who can do things with an airplane others in the group can't do. It's a natural pecking order where the ability to perform aerobatics rates highly among many in the group. This isn't to say that aerobatic pilots are better than others in the group, but rather that the ability to perform aerobatics and fly certain aircraft can be a "respected position" in the flying community. Knowing this is practically unavoidable if one exists in the flying community as a pilot. It's quite natural therefore, (right or wrong), that SOME pilots acquiring aerobatic skills tend toward envisioning themselves as being "a step up" in the pecking order. If not recognized by an individual pilot when and if this happens for it's potential toward the development of false confidence, the situation can be a real problem for some individuals. The trick of course is for the acrobatically competent pilot to recognize that part of the price for that "step up" in the pecking order is a dual responsibility to accept aerobatics and the dangers associated with them with the respect they are due and as well make every attempt to instill that same respect in other pilots. This is nothing more really, than a pedantic way of saying that pilots acquiring aerobatic skills need to acquire aerobatic responsibility as well. The two are inseparable and the first without the latter will kill you dead. The residual of all this is that without responsibility, what you do can influence someone else and possibly kill them dead as well. The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns worth emulating for those considering entering this venue. Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time. They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me to hear my voice I always stressed; "Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!" Hm, yes. I never thought this through before, but it rings true. I'm never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of innate wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart. We'll have to share a few Jack Daniels' sometime and discuss this in more depth :-) This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this person or that one is watching. Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for aerobatic pilots. Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly hard maneuvers for the camera. Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy who has too much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitude and, I believe, have led to a habit of constant self appraisal that has served me well in just about any flying discipline. IOW, experience has eventually won out but I was lucky to have acquired it! This is a perfectly normal process. I went through it as well. (Remember, I probably own the most widely publicized buzz job in aviation history :-) The trick is to recognize it early on and control it which I'm sure both of us managed to do. What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it. Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane with a flat battery or something like that. As it turned out, this was unfortunately true. in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man.. Bertie Douglas did have a way with words. Once to a group of paraplegic children he visited in a hospital; “Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't do this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind you'll never use crutches or a stick, then have a go at everything. Go to school, join in all the games you can. Go anywhere you want to. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible.” Ya gotta love the guy!! :-)) -- Dudley Henriques |
#49
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T-6 accident
Jim Logajan wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote: "Viperdoc" wrote in news:474364d1$0$32502 : Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns out that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane. It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!" Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1 This is just a mind blowing accident. Wow. That pilot didn't make an isolated foolish mistake - the historical evidence indicates he was a fool from the beginning to the end. The tragedy is that four others died along with the fool. Found this AOPA article on the accident with the apt title "What was he thinking?": http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2007/sp0707.html This is almost always the case with these incidents. It's seldom a one shot deal decided on the spur of the moment. Many of the pilots caughtup in these things have a "history". Many times it's just that old; "I could be Bob Hoover if only I had the chance". Unfortunately, these people never quite realize until it's way too late that the word "chance" should really be read as "experience" -- Dudley Henriques |
#50
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T-6 accident
On Nov 20, 4:28 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote : I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely conceived premise at best that some actually never shed . Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT simple! I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station. The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns worth emulating for those considering entering this venue. Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time. They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me to hear my voice I always stressed; "Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!" Hm, yes. I never thougth this through before, but it rings true. I'm never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of inate wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart. This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this person or that one is watching. Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for aerobatic pilots. Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly hard maneuvers for the camera. Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy who has to much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitue and, I believe, have led to a habit of constant self appraisel that has served me well in just about any flying disciplne. IOW, experiece has eventually won out but I was lucky to have acquired it! What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it. Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane with a flat battery or something like that. in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools". Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man.. Bertie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I feel that the IAC competition environment and practice for competition is a relatively safe way to do aerobatics. The reasons a 1) when you practice a contest sequence, it is not impromptu, but rather, it is a carefully planned flight; 2) the contest sequences are looked over by your peers (or your betters) for sanity and safety; 3) you have a reasonable hard deck appropriate to your level of equipment and experience; 4) you know that breaking the hard deck at a contest gets you major penalties and/or disqualification; 5) nobody ever wins by flying lower than the other guy or by giving the judges a scare. When I start messing around with non-competition figures, I move up at least 1K ft, depending on what it is. When I do these, it is for me, not for anybody on the ground who might be looking. I do these figures one at a time with repositioning between them. The statistics look pretty good too. Nobody has died doing an aerobatic sequence in front of judges here in the US in a very long time. Practice accidents happen occassionally but probably due to breaking one or more of the above rules. 10's, K l e i n |
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