Radio 'altercation' with ATC

wrote:



Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

All is fine except for the maintain visual separation part. That makes
no sense, even if you did have all the aircraft is sight.



Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Very bad on the Cessna's part.


Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

The controller should have made sure the Cessna was following the right
aircraft but he's right about the 360's. Cessna pilot should have
called before starting manuvers like that.



[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

He's technically right but practically wrong.


I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor.


Probably no supervisor at the tower except the tower manager himself.
It would be a good idea to call him and give him the time and let him
listen to the tapes and tell you what he thinks. If this is a recurring
problem ask for a meeting with the manager. If he won't give you one go
over his head to the nearest FAA tower and ask the same thing.


I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy',

More for safety than courtesy.


and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in.

Always ask if you're not sure.




Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

Yep, we do that.

A Lieberman wrote:


Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90. Squawk
0104.

To which you reply..."I don't think so, squawk 0104." When they're
clearly wrong I don't hesitate to give them the needle.

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?

Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
providing service, and the regulation applies.

It's a given that you have to establish 2-way communication (or make
prior arrangements) before you can enter Class D airspace, and it
follows that if you're not going in to the airspace, you don't need to
contact the controller.

.... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?
I can't recall any regulation that indicates otherwise.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:
91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?

No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
class G.



Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
providing service, and the regulation applies.

Nope.



... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?

No and the class D controller shouldn't be trying to control you outside
his airspace.

I would have answered... "you told me to follow the Cherokee, and that is
what I'm trying to do".. maintain visual separation means just that.. the
controller gave the pilot permission to do what is needed to follow the
Cherokee..

Once the tower identified that the Cessna had the wrong Cherokee.. the tower
controller over reacted by berating the pilot about it. The pilot did have
permission to maneuver (see above).

The tower should have just re-issued a new direction (clearance) and let it
go. Granted.. the controllers un professional actions on the radio do not
warrant the CFI's response.

Calls to supervisors on the ground are the order, and if the supervisor
presses the issue. Ask him to pull the tapes, and that you are filing a
HATR.

BT

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Once in radio contact with ATC, whether inside of that controller's
airspace or not, the pilot should get permission before doing anything
like a 360. He (in this case) has no idea of the controller's traffic
management plan.

I agree that the best thing to do is comply with instructions and hash it
out on the ground. Ask the controller for a phone number and his initials.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap

can you get a word in edgewise on the frequency? many times I have not been
able to and had to circle outside his airspace just to get into the flow on
the radios and get permission to proceed. (Initial call up)

BT

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Just a somewhat uneducated guess...

You were inbound to an airport and talking to tower. Would it have been
too
much trouble to simply key the mic and tell the controller that you were
having spacing problems on the Cherokee, and ask for permission to do your
360's?

Regardless of regulations, regardless of responsibility, isn't tower
providing sequencing at that point? Common sense would tell you that under
those circumstances, if everyone of the aircraft simply started flying
whatever path they wanted to would be an extremely dangerous situation.

You noted: "The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of
prickly". If this is an example of the types of situations they are
dealing
with, don't you think their attitude might be justified?






wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap

Class E airspace in general is UNCONTROLLED.. it is only "controlled" for
IFR traffic.. I can fly in Class E all I want and talk to no one.. as long
as I maintain required visual weather minimums..

BT

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
oups.com...
91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?

Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
providing service, and the regulation applies.

It's a given that you have to establish 2-way communication (or make
prior arrangements) before you can enter Class D airspace, and it
follows that if you're not going in to the airspace, you don't need to
contact the controller.

... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?
I can't recall any regulation that indicates otherwise.

Newps wrote:

No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
class G.

Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

BTIZ wrote:
I can fly in Class E all I want and talk to no one.. as long
as I maintain required visual weather minimums..

Everyone knows that.

.... but if you call a controller and ask for service, you ARE talking
to someone. Aren't you obligated to follow instructions given to you
at that point? What regulation indicates otherwise?

Here is a Canadian take on it.
You can do all the 360's that you want to do - when in uncontrolled
airspace - until you communicate with a controller for the purpose of
entering his/her airspace. After communicating with the controller you
should follow their instructions and advise them of any deviation.from
those instructions. As they have the responsibility for maintaining
separation, they have to know where everyone is and what everyone is
doing.

Tony

In article . com,
wrote:

Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE