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#11
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Abrupt Controller
Peter Clark wrote:
I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be changed. It was widely misreported. Order JO 7110.65S Air Traffic Control Chapter 2. General Control Section 4. Radio and Interphone Communications 2-4-3. PILOT ACKNOWLEDGMENT/READ BACK a. When issuing clearances or instructions ensure acknowledgment by the pilot. NOTE- Pilots may acknowledge clearances, instructions, or other information by using "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," or other words or remarks. REFERENCE- AIM, Para 4-2-3, Contact Procedures. b. If altitude, heading, or other items are read back by the pilot, ensure the read back is correct. If incorrect or incomplete, make corrections as appropriate. |
#12
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Abrupt Controller
Kobra writes:
But as I said before, the big issue with me was the way he snapped. I just think he was a young man, given a little authority, probably a junior trainee controller sitting with him, I'm in charge and fear me attitude and probably having a bad day. If he reacts that emotionally to something this trivial, perhaps air traffic control is not the best career choice for him. Angry young males make poor air traffic controllers (in fact, they are bad at just about everything except perhaps bar fights). |
#13
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Abrupt Controller
Peter Clark writes:
I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. If ATC isn't supposed to correct an incorrect readback, why have readbacks? Or is that not what you mean? |
#14
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Abrupt Controller
"Kobra" wrote in message
. .. Where was your readback? I read it back and just like me he heard what his brain expected to hear: 'unable' when I actually said 'when able' . I wish I thought of that while I was being reprimanded. I was just too busy flying, being embarrassed and head scratching trying to figure out how this whole misunderstanding took place. But as I said before, the big issue with me was the way he snapped. I just think he was a young man, given a little authority, probably a junior trainee controller sitting with him, I'm in charge and fear me attitude and probably having a bad day. Kobra Yeah, he got the phraseology bass-ackward. Yeah, he gave you a ration you probably didn't have coming. Maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe he just got told he's going to the sandbox for another 13 months; for his second or third time. Maybe he was a trainee trying to impress his trainer with his "control." Maybe a lot of things. If anyone else in the facility heard the exchange he's likely already gotten some wall-to-wall counseling. **** happens :-/ Be the adult and drive on. |
#15
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Abrupt Controller
Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where
you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your computer game. |
#16
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Abrupt Controller
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:43:02 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: Peter Clark wrote: I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be changed. It was widely misreported. Hm, OK, thanks. What I seem to remember is someone who got violated for doing something that they read back incorrectly and used "but the controller didn't fix the readback" as part of the defense and still had the violation upheld as it wasn't ATC's issue if they didn't correct an incorrect readback. Wouldn't be the first time I misremembered somethin tho. |
#17
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Abrupt Controller
Mxsmanic wrote in
: Kobra writes: I did not mean to be misleading and of course I don't have all the facts. Using only the information I do have, I feel it a fact that he spent needless time lecturing a GA pilot who was also illegally in the TCA. It would not be a stretch to infer that this distracted him from his scope. No one can say that it's not *possible* or even likely that if he didn't give his lecture that he may have seen the conflict and warned the airliner about the VFR target's position and direction of flight with the typical "altitude known". Hey, who knows, but I am surprised yet happy that this person came back to the FAA and ATC. The show *Air Emergency* (which is how I learned about this) made it appear that once he came back to work, he immediately decided that ATC was not for him and he never worked for ATC again. I'm happy everything worked out for him. I felt really bad for him when I saw the show. If this is the one, I see no mention of ATC distraction: NTSB Identification: DCA86AA041A. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 31249. Scheduled 14 CFR Part 129: Foreign AERONAVES DE MEXICO, S.A. Accident occurred Sunday, August 31, 1986 in CERRITOS, CA Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/7/1988 Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-9-32, registration: XAJED Injuries: 82 Fatal, 8 Minor. The Safety Board's full report on this investigation is provided as Aviation Accident Report number AAR-87/07. To obtain a copy of this report, or to view the executive summary online, please see the Web site at http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm AT APRX 1140 PDT, A PIPER PA-28, N4891F, DEPARTED TORRANCE, CA ON A VFR FLT TO BIG BEAR, CA. AFTER TAKEOFF, THE PLT TURNED EASTBOUND TWD THE PARADISE VORTAC WITH HIS X-PONDER SQUAWKING 1200. AT THAT TIME, AEROMEXICO FLT 498 (DC-8, MEX REGISTRY XA-JED) WAS ON ARRIVAL, RCVG NORTHBOUND VECTORS FM LAX APCH CTL (AR-1 CTLR) FOR AN ILS APCH TO THE LAX INTL ARPT. AT 1151:04, THE CTLR ASKED FLT 498 TO RDC SPD TO 190 KTS & DSCND FM 7000' TO 6000'. DRG THIS TIME, THE CTLR WAS CTLG OTR TRAFFIC & PROVIDING RADAR ADVISORIES, BUT DIDN'T SEE A DISPLAY FOR N4891F ON HIS SCOPE. AT 1152:09, N4891F & FLT 498 CONVERGED & COLLIDED AT APRX 6560', THEN FELL TO THE GND. AN INV REVEALED N4891F HAD INADVERTENTLY ENTERED THE LAX TERMINAL CONTROL AREA (TCA) & WASN'T IN RADIO CONTACT WITH ATC. LAX TRACON WASN'T EQUIPPED WITH AN AUTO CONFLICT ALERT SYS & THE ANALOG BEACON RESPONSE FM N4891F'S X-PONDER WASN'T DISPLAYED DUE TO EQUIP CONFIGURATION. N4891F'S PSN WAS DISPLAYED BY AN ALPHANUMERIC TRIANGLE, BUT THE PRIMARY TARGET WASN'T DISPLAYED DUE TO AN ATMOSPHERIC INVERSION. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: RADAR,APPROACH/DEPARTURE..INADEQUATE PROCEDURE INADEQUATE..FAA(OTHER/ORGANIZATION) Contributing Factors IDENTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT ON RADAR..NOT ATTAINED PROCEDURES/DIRECTIVES..NOT FOLLOWED..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT UNSAFE/HAZARDOUS CONDITION..INADVERTENT..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT IN COMMAND Nobody cares what you see, you moron. |
#18
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Abrupt Controller
Mxsmanic wrote in
: Kobra writes: Ok so...I took-off on an IFR flight plan and I had just leveled off at 4000' north bound for their fix. Next they gave me a vector of 090. After a minute or so I asked the controller, "McGuire Approach, Cardinal 07G, any chance direct Smyrna (ENO)?" The response I got was, "07G direct Smyrna unable." Ok...that would be fine if that was what my busy brain heard, but I did not hear it that way...my brain heard, "07G direct Smyrna 'when able'." Shortly after I turned direct for ENO I got a VERY large lecture with unneeded and unnecessary attitude. "07G I TOLD YOU STAY 090. CAN'T YOU LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND ATC INSTRUCTIONS? WHEN I GIVE YOU A VECTOR YOU ARE TO FOLLOW IT EXACTLY AND CAREFULLY!!" When I explained to him that I heard him say, "...direct ENO when able." he became even more belligerent. "I DID *NOT* SAY THAT!! YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ATC INSTRUCTION MORE CAREFULLY AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTION EXACTLY." Where was your readback? Granted I heard him wrong and I made a mistake. But I think the controller needs to take some responsibility for using confusing verbiage and surely it was unprofessional to lay me out like that. Had you read back the instructions, the chances of any confusion would have been greatly reduced. You should always read things back. This reminds me of how a mid-air occurred in LA because a new controller took time to admonish a GA pilot for a couple minutes while a commercial plane and a Piper collided right in front of him on his screen. When was this? So my question to Steve McNicoll is...is that standard verbiage to say, "...direct Smyrna 'unable'??. 'cause I'm here to tell ya that, that can be EASILY confused with 'direct Smyrna 'when able'. What's your thoughts on this and did he use proper language or did he just use poor phraseology? If you read back "when able" after he says "unable," he'll probably catch it and correct you. If you don't read anything back, you never know. Anthony, you don't know **** from Shinola about using an AM radio, you ****ing moron. A total waste of life. |
#19
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Abrupt Controller
"Viperdoc" wrote in
: Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your computer game. One has to wonder how Anthony can even manage to play a computer game! |
#20
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Abrupt Controller
One has to wonder how Anthony can even manage to play a computer game! No one ever said he was any good at it, and he's probably orders of magnitude worse than he thinks he is. |
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