ANNUAL, 2005 Redux...

I have been doing the "Slick Shuffle" for the past 12 years in my
Cherokee. At around 500 hours, I pull them off and physically take them
to the accessory overhauler 2 towns over. We usually put a new set of
points and condenser in one and replace the other. If I recall, there is
(or was) a $150 core or trade in credit that softened the blow. I
generally make a check out for $500 - $600 depending on whether the
impulse coupling mag is exchanged or the other one goes.

Mike
How much $,$$$ was the Slick option?

Forgetting price: Slick vs. your option. What are the
advantages/disadvantages of the Slick system?


Montblack

Denny, looks like you and I has similar annuals! This year both my mags
where replaced with new from aircraft spruce I went with slick conversion
kit after all core credits & rebates my total cost for Plugs, Mags & Harness
was about $1,025 + Labor


"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
The dreaded annual condition inspection time has arrived... Fat
Albert is currently perched upon the wing jacks pending gear swing
testing...
I have put 500 hours on the fat boy over the past three years and one
of the topics this year was the mags.... I had gone to the yellow
newspaper and priced the various Bendix magneto parts... Steve, the
mechanic, had the mags on the bench when I arrived... After looking at
the disassembled parts I got that familiar (to airplane owners) sinking
sensation (much like a big down draft on short final)... It was clearly
visible that the mags were in need of significantly more than points
and condensor... Bearing balls were significantly out of round, the
distributors were burned and pitted, one rotor had been rubbing on the
stator and was scarred, one coil had been arcing, etc...After spending
an hour (another $55 in labor) jawing about the mags, looking in
Steve's parts catalogs (going back to the Wright Bros.), and making
phone calls we came to several conclusions...
First, is that the mags needed total overhauls - actually more like a
sledgehammer massage...
Second, that two of the mags were a collection of random parts from
various fly-market magnetos, not all of which parts were from dash
numbers called for by Lycoming... One case was -30, one was missing
the tag, one was a -29, and one was a -11...
The plug wires are 4 years old and in fine shape... The cost of
Steve's time and parts to rebuild these mags was not economical... We
tossed around the idea of going to Slicks, but
that mean't buying new wires, which were not needed... In the end we
opted for a set of rebuilt mags from AVIAL by way of Aircraft Spruce...


First phone call to AS: I got a young male voice... Told him what I
needed, rattling off the 10 number... Got a long silence in return
followed by a plaintive request , 'did I know what page number in the
catalog that was on'... I advised him I wasn't looking at a catalog
and I suggested that he type 'magneto' into his computer screen
followed by the 10 number I gave him and see what turned up... Long
story short, after 5 agonizing minutes he finally located the magnetos
and announced that the -30 mags were special order only... At this
point it was clear he was in over his head and I did not believe
anything he said, told him I would think about it and hung up...

Second phone call: I counted to 20, slowly to allow Forrest Gump there
to be on the phone with someone else, and redialed AS... The bubbly,
blond, southern bimbo answers... I can smell the fresh nail polish
clear through the phone, as she is waving her hands to dry the gleaming
red lacquer.. The smooth southern drawl would make Dolly Parton
jealous..
I need some magnetos, I announce, with dread in my heart...
Bendix or Slick, y'all, she fires back...
This catches me off guard for a second... Bendix, I admit, stumbling
over my tongue..
Do you have the 10 number she asks... I rattle off the -29 one...
How many, she asks... Two, I admit...
Very good sir, those are the non impulse mags, they are in stock and we
can ship this afternoon... Do you need any impulse mags...
Jeez, this girl is giving me whiplash she's so quick... I rattle off
the -30 number and ask for two - holding my breath about the special
order schmozzle...
They are in stock and we can ship this afternoon... What else kin I hep
you with, sir...

At this point we had been engaged for roughly 90 seconds and I was
already thinking of asking her to marry me, but I suspected that my
wife would object... Instead we settled for my credit card number and
a promise that they would ship with the 6 o'clock untied parcel that
very day...
"Byeee, y'all have a good un.", she chirps and is gone...

The thing that annoys me about all this, $2,000 later, is that the
clapped out mags have been starting immediately and running like gang
busters... I can hardly wait to see how the new mags run...

denny

How much $,$$$ was the Slick option?

Forgetting price: Slick vs. your option. What are the
advantages/disadvantages of the Slick system?


Montblack



I went with slick conversion kit on my 150 after all core credits & rebates
my total cost for Plugs, Mags & Harness was about $1,025 + Labor

"Denny" writes:

The plug wires are 4 years old and in fine shape... The cost of
Steve's time and parts to rebuild these mags was not economical... We
tossed around the idea of going to Slicks, but
that mean't buying new wires, which were not needed... In the end we
opted for a set of rebuilt mags from AVIAL by way of Aircraft Spruce...


These are the kind of GA stories that make me cry. Thirty five years
ago, I remember changing the points and rotor in a Beetle. That was
the last mechanical ignition I've seen.

I junked my 2nd Datsun 210 this year. From 1979 on, those two were
all I'd driven. And while I'd acquired and kept a spare ignition
module; I'd never used one. (Nor the spare starter....)

And while the Beetle was a PITA to start in cold damp weather with
a weak battery... my neighbor just donated away his +10yo Caddy
Coupe de Bismarck. After spending ~$10K on an engine rebuild a few
years ago {gag!} he finally gave up after the ?air? boost part of
the suspension failed & the dealer wanted $3K more to fix it. It
sat there for 2+ years because he really didn't want to let it go;
all the new ones (inc. his) were smaller and he kept hoping it could
be fixed...

Finally his spouse ordered it gone. The flatbed from the 501c3
couldn't hook it at the angle it was parked, so he and I used my
"battery boiler" charger and my welding cable jumpers. It fired up
on a squirt of ether; and as soon as the gas made it up front, kept
going. We managed to back it into the alley despite the fact he'd
left the parking brake on and the rear wheels were seized. (A little
dish soap & H2O helped...)

I keep hoping that someone somehow will figure out a way to move
some of the massive tecnology improvements we use (and ignore) daily
in our cars into the fleet; but I sure don't know what that route
is...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

I keep hoping that someone somehow will figure out a way to move
some of the massive tecnology improvements we use (and ignore) daily
in our cars into the fleet; but I sure don't know what that route
is...

Yeah. I heard an ad on the radio about a shop that had the gear to read the
computer chips for diagnosis in cars. That set me thinking about the diagnosis
technique frequently used with aircraft; replace parts until something works. It
seems to me that it wouldn't be hard to get the FAA to sign off on at least a
diagnostic chip.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Uhh, seems like the number she quoted to me, was roughly $355 per mag
and $200 core deposit... I assume my cores will be accepted as they
were running on an engine when removed but you know what 'assume' can
do Even with the $800 back from cores, it's going to be $1600 or so
in the end with labor and shipping... Still, that's a 1200-1400 savings
over all new... Actually, I like Bendix mags.. Parts can be had
everywhere... And, I've been flying behind them for 60+ years...

Looks like there will be a delay in getting the ship back... I ordered
the mags at 4PM on Wednesday and they were in my hands at noon on
Friday... Not bad for UPS Brown from Ga to Mi...So, late Friday
afternoon I delivered them to Steve... While there Steve and I swung
the gear, and then I sat around and watched while he greased the wheel
bearings, reassembled the wheels and brakes, etc... Actually, he
dropped several hints that I could help if I wanted... Sittng there in
a white shirt and tie, I simply grinned and watched while he rolled his
260 pounds around on the floor like a beached whale... I did help get
it off the jacks...

Then he dropped the bomb... The FAA is going to be in the shop on
Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday for his new Part 135 certification of
the books, the shop, the Chief pilot, and the Aztec... I informed
Steve that my airplane was NOT going to be in the shop for three days,
with the logs laying on the wing, while the FAA was prowling around
desperately looking for someone or something to violate... So, he WOULD
work Saturday and Sunday installing the mags, buttoning up the
inspection plates, dye checking the rudder hinges, test run, etc.,
etc., etc. and give my plane back to me so I could get it locked away
in a private hangar...

He about cried... Said it was going to take him all weekend to finish
all the squawks on the Aztec that miraculously showed up on the final
test flight by his Chief Pilot... After a bit of shouting and swearing,
he allowed that he could get Fat Albert out of the shop and into the
box hangar next door, which is not subject to the 135 inspection... I
was still growling like a Grizzly with a bad tooth, but it is the best
I can negotiate...

denny and Fat Albert

George Patterson" wrote in message
news:ZK0wf.23428$uy3.5082@trnddc08...
David Lesher wrote:

I keep hoping that someone somehow will figure out a way to move
some of the massive tecnology improvements we use (and ignore) daily
in our cars into the fleet; but I sure don't know what that route
is...

The technology got into cars because the government mandated fuel economy
and emission improvements. It shouldn't be hard to figure out what it will
take to get it into aircraft.
In any case, there are exactly two things "wrong" with aircraft engines. The
spark timing is fixed and the mixture control is in the hands of the pilot.
And you can't do anything about the first problem until you fix the second.


Yeah. I heard an ad on the radio about a shop that had the gear to read
the computer chips for diagnosis in cars. That set me thinking about the
diagnosis technique frequently used with aircraft; replace parts until
something works. It seems to me that it wouldn't be hard to get the FAA to
sign off on at least a diagnostic chip.

Right. Now a mechanic just replaces parts until the fault codes go away...

It's nearly impossible to narrow things down to just one part, so even with
diagnostic codes to point the way, mechanics still tend to replace the easy
stuff first.
For example if you get a "oxygen sensor not switching" code, 9 times out of
10, the mechanic will replace the sensor. Then, only when that doesn't solve
the problem, will they will actually start to look for the cause of the
mixture problem (vacuum leak, etc.). Of course, there are those who will
just replace the sensor again. And again. And again... After a few tries,
they then complain that there is something wrong with the diagnostic
software.

FWIW, I write algorithms that do air fuel control and diagnostics at one of
the larger automobile manufacturers.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

: In any case, there are exactly two things "wrong" with aircraft engines. The
: spark timing is fixed and the mixture control is in the hands of the pilot.
: And you can't do anything about the first problem until you fix the second.

The first is a compromise, but generally works really well for aircraft
engines... they *do* run at a constant RPM all the time. The second isn't that big of
a deal if the pilot is properly trained to use the mixture knob. Trouble is most
aren't because of the great degree of OWT and misinformation out there on the subject.

I would argue that the #1 biggest problem with aircraft engines is that they
are still air-cooled. Removing the tremendous thermal stresses of having 450 degree
CHT's make most of the "routine" aircraft engine problems go away. Stuck valves,
cracked exhaust flanges and cylinder heads, ridiculous octane requirements (100 for
8.5:1?) due to the heat and low RPM, galled cylinders/pistons due to overheating,
shock-cooling, and cold-starts, etc.

Liquid cooling stabilizes everything, lets more power be made more efficiently
with greater reliability. It doesn't even have to add too much weight.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...
: In any case, there are exactly two things "wrong" with aircraft engines.
The
: spark timing is fixed and the mixture control is in the hands of the
pilot.
: And you can't do anything about the first problem until you fix the
second.

The first is a compromise, but generally works really well for aircraft
engines... they *do* run at a constant RPM all the time. The second isn't
that big of
a deal if the pilot is properly trained to use the mixture knob. Trouble
is most
aren't because of the great degree of OWT and misinformation out there on
the subject.

Except that the optimal spark timing is a strong function of the air fuel
ratio. To get the full benifit of leaning, you need to change the spark. You
can't optimize the spark for the mixture if you don't know what the mixture
is.

I would argue that the #1 biggest problem with aircraft engines is that
they
are still air-cooled.

Liquid cooling has it's advantages.

Removing the tremendous thermal stresses of having 450 degree
CHT's make most of the "routine" aircraft engine problems go away. Stuck
valves,
cracked exhaust flanges and cylinder heads, ridiculous octane requirements
(100 for
8.5:1?)

Octane requirement is a stong function of spark timing...
Of course, large, open combustion chambers with lower charge motion tend to
require higher octane too.

due to the heat and low RPM, galled cylinders/pistons due to overheating,
shock-cooling, and cold-starts, etc.

Liquid cooling stabilizes everything, lets more power be made more
efficiently
with greater reliability. It doesn't even have to add too much weight.


Getting rid of points would be an improvement also. Solid state magneto's
are not hard to make.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com writes:

I keep hoping that someone somehow will figure out a way to move
some of the massive tecnology improvements we use (and ignore) daily
in our cars into the fleet; but I sure don't know what that route
is...

The technology got into cars because the government mandated fuel economy
and emission improvements. It shouldn't be hard to figure out what it will
take to get it into aircraft.

Yes, this was the biggest push. But I believe once Detroit started
hiring EE's [they literally had ME's doing EE work for years...]
and got them into sync with the environment...[rotten power supply,
with 65V spikes seconds long, horrid temp & vibration issues, vicious
reliability demands, and oh, a NTE $0.25 price point...] they've NOW
gone a LONG way farther and continue to. That's because they have hungry
competitors who will not let them rest.

In any case, there are exactly two things "wrong" with aircraft engines. The
spark timing is fixed and the mixture control is in the hands of the pilot.
And you can't do anything about the first problem until you fix the second.

Agreed. They need what cars have had for years: FADEC's with one
lever power control.

FWIW, I write algorithms that do air fuel control and diagnostics at one of
the larger automobile manufacturers.

Then you know far more about this than greasy-knuckle folks like moi.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433