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#71
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Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: (Peter Stickney) Date: 3/4/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours. John Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with the National Guard? The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard) were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000 men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war, with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm. Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/. During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units, which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers. Joe Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further. Art, the National Guard as we know it today was pretty much established under the Militia Act of 1903, which required that the various units of teh Organized Militia of the various States had to conform to U.S. Army standards of equipment, organization, and training, Federal control was tightened throughout the decade following, and the National Guard was made part of the United States Army via the National Defence Act of 1914. This recognized 4 elements of the land forces of the U.S,: The Regular Army, the National Guard, the Reserve Corps, and the wartime Volunteer Army. (The regular Army was made up of Career Soldiers. The National Guard was the part-time reserve, organized into units housed by the States and available to the Governors of those States. The Reserve Corps was part-time soldiers not formed into units, The Volunteer Army was to have been the units formed during wartime expansion of the Army. By the time of the U.S. ENtry into the FIrst World War, the Volunteer Army was replaced by the National Army, which was made up of people inducted via the Draft. The Federal GOvernment gained the power to appoint all Officers in 1914. (As an aside, Regular Army units are distinguished by Division numbers running from 1 through 25, and Regimental designations running from 1-100. National Guard Division numerical designations run from 26-62, and Regiments from 100-168. National Army units had Division and Regemntal numbers higher than these. So any Division between 26 adn 62 (That actual Highest number activated was 45) was a National Guard Division.) In August 1918, all Active Units (Regulars, Activated Guard Units, and National Army) were fused inot the same organization. One they're called up or activated, they're considered completely intergangable with the Regular Army. The National Guard was called up beginning in February 1940, and was not released until Nov/Dec. 1945. Most of this is from the "Infantry" volume of the Army Lineage Series, Mahon and Danysh, Office of teh Chief of Military History, Washington D.C., 1972, and "World War II Order of Battle", Stanton, Galahad, NY, NY, 1991. -- Pete Stickney I donlt know Peter. Remember we were kids at the time waiting to be 18 and go to war. Almost all of us in high school volunteered for either the Army Air Corps ro the Navy V12 program waiting for our 18th birthday so we could be called up and start training at flying school. Those very few who went into the "Guard" were considered cowards and held in contempt and none of them ever went to war. The stuff you are telling me is quite interesting, but we knew nothing about that at the time. But thanks for the info.Appreciate it. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further. He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard when it was--well, nationalized. Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one (not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of course also have provided some of the traditional services of law enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard. Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So "everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain. There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats. all the best -- Dan Ford email: (requires authentication) see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#73
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Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: Cub Driver Date: 3/5/04 2:02 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further. He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard when it was--well, nationalized. Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one (not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of course also have provided some of the traditional services of law enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard. Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So "everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain. There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats. Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school when we violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the primary entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't be called to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or something, so we had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news every day and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids among us who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called. One was to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and Fairchild were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out that a kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either the Army AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in the world. We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12 programs come out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came out in full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could for our country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was all to glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't wait to go. Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time went in to the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the war would end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the "guard" or those who got defferments doing war work. But they were never one of us. And never would be. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#74
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard From: Cub Driver Date: 3/5/04 2:02 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further. He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard when it was--well, nationalized. Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one (not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of course also have provided some of the traditional services of law enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard. Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So "everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain. There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats. Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school when we violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the primary entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't be called to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or something, so we had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news every day and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids among us who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called. One was to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and Fairchild were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out that a kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either the Army AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in the world. We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12 programs come out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came out in full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could for our country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was all to glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't wait to go. Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time went in to the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the war would end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the "guard" or those who got defferments doing war work. But they were never one of us. And never would be. Geeze, you just don't GET it, do you? As Cub Driver has politley informed you, going into the State Guard did NOT get your buddy a deferment. Where you got that idea I have no idea; for that matter, how you grew up and lived through that period without realizing that your local National Guard unit, like every other one from across the country, had been inducted into federal service when you were, oh...fifteen or sixteen years old says something about your qulaifications to make (baseless) pronouncements about the Guard, be it the National variety or your state militia force. Brooks Arthur Kramer |
#76
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In article ,
(B2431) writes: From: Cub Driver snip There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats. all the best -- Dan Ford email: (requires authentication) The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in selling it? Dan, or is it Dan? Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg. (I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at 200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812 Overture, played at half speed.) -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#77
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The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in selling it? Unfortunately, I sporterized the 45/70, so it lost a lot of its value right there (if it had any). And when I was in the army, my brother sold it. all the best -- Dan Ford email: (requires authentication) see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#78
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Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: (Peter Stickney) Date: 3/5/2004 9:32 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (B2431) writes: From: Cub Driver snip There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats. all the best -- Dan Ford email: (requires authentication) The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in selling it? Dan, or is it Dan? Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg. (I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at 200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812 Overture, played at half speed.) -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster I would have used my trapdoor Springfield to avoid the half speed effect. I truly regret having sold it, but a divorce can be quite a problem for a gun collection. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#79
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In article ,
(B2431) writes: Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard From: (Peter Stickney) Date: 3/5/2004 9:32 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (B2431) writes: From: Cub Driver snip There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats. all the best -- Dan Ford email: (requires authentication) The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in selling it? Dan, or is it Dan? Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg. (I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at 200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812 Overture, played at half speed.) I would have used my trapdoor Springfield to avoid the half speed effect. I truly regret having sold it, but a divorce can be quite a problem for a gun collection. Well, teh problem wasn't so much Rate of Fire, y'see, but Time of Flight. At 200 Yds, it was taking the bullet the better part of a second to get down there, So, it was "Boom!,......Bong!", "Boom!.........Bong!" I suppose that wo could have worked up some interesting counterpoint, if I'd brought the Garand along. AS it was, the Abutters thought it was Some Strange Ritual in Progress, and called the Police. No big deal though, we let them shoot a few rounds and all was O.K. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
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