FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Ron,

Thanks for clarifying. I was not aware of previous US Scorer experience with SeeYou Competition. This is very useful.

May I ask you to expound on this "MUCH" experience with See You Competition and US Scorers? Please be specific and list what competitions you (or others) have scored using SeeYou Comp. I would be shocked if you cite competitions in the USA. Or did you (or others) go overseas (any other gliding country in the World that does not use US rules)?

Could you further expound on what your previous experience was like in terms of initial learning curve, ease of use, etc.

How would you rate your experience using SeeYou Competition at the 2012 Uvalde World Championships (with this MUCH previous experience)?

Was SeeYou Comp reasonably easy to use? Was it unusable?

How does it compare to Winscore? What were your impressions on the FAI rules vs. US Rules? I understand you are biased to the US rules (per your comment). Nonetheless, your insigt is most welcomed.

Sincerely,

Sean
F2/7T

On Friday, November 30, 2012 9:55:54 AM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Thursday, 29 November 2012 20:46:20 UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:

On Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:24:07 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:



T















On Thursday, 29 November 2012 16:20:16 UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:



























Other than the 1-26 class I not sure how the SSA RC has allowed anything other than Winscore in the past. *I see no problems using SeeYou Competition, like any scoring program you need experience with it. *There are a number of 'administrative' steps that become manual with SeeYou.











There is no rules-required official scoring program. Use a slide rule







if you want to. 1-26ers use their own program.











John Cochrane







Thanks John, need to find and dust off that slide ruler!







The SeeYou scoring module very easy to use with FAI rules. SeeYou was highly successfully when used by the American scorers during the 2012 World Championship in Uvalde this [ast summer. They all had minimal previous experience with it. I am sure other scorer's could pick it up just as easily..







SeeYou is good software, well supported by Naviteer and used by many major contests worldwide. Utilizing this software for the 2013 US FAI Club Class Nationals would be plug and play simple. My wife is excellent with both SeeYou and WinScore. She would be happy to help score (or fully score) for the contests I attend in 2013. I am also willing to train via GoToMeeting anytime...







Sean



F2



F2 wrote - They all had minimal previous experience with it



this is an untrue statement, some of us, including me, have much experience with SeeYou Competition. Make sure you have your facts correct.



Will be watching to see how this unfolds, good luck. I support the SSA competition committee approach, I fly a ASW20 BL 8-)

On Friday, 30 November 2012 10:11:15 UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Ron,



Thanks for clarifying. I was not aware of previous US Scorer experience with SeeYou Competition. This is very useful.



May I ask you to expound on this "MUCH" experience with See You Competition and US Scorers? Please be specific and list what competitions you (or others) have scored using SeeYou Comp. I would be shocked if you cite competitions in the USA. Or did you (or others) go overseas (any other gliding country in the World that does not use US rules)?



Could you further expound on what your previous experience was like in terms of initial learning curve, ease of use, etc.



How would you rate your experience using SeeYou Competition at the 2012 Uvalde World Championships (with this MUCH previous experience)?



Was SeeYou Comp reasonably easy to use? Was it unusable?



How does it compare to Winscore? What were your impressions on the FAI rules vs. US Rules? I understand you are biased to the US rules (per your comment). Nonetheless, your insigt is most welcomed.



Sincerely,



Sean

F2/7T



On Friday, November 30, 2012 9:55:54 AM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:

On Thursday, 29 November 2012 20:46:20 UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:



On Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:24:07 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:







T































On Thursday, 29 November 2012 16:20:16 UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:























































Other than the 1-26 class I not sure how the SSA RC has allowed anything other than Winscore in the past. *I see no problems using SeeYou Competition, like any scoring program you need experience with it. *There are a number of 'administrative' steps that become manual with SeeYou.























There is no rules-required official scoring program. Use a slide rule















if you want to. 1-26ers use their own program.























John Cochrane















Thanks John, need to find and dust off that slide ruler!















The SeeYou scoring module very easy to use with FAI rules. SeeYou was highly successfully when used by the American scorers during the 2012 World Championship in Uvalde this [ast summer. They all had minimal previous experience with it. I am sure other scorer's could pick it up just as easily.















SeeYou is good software, well supported by Naviteer and used by many major contests worldwide. Utilizing this software for the 2013 US FAI Club Class Nationals would be plug and play simple. My wife is excellent with both SeeYou and WinScore. She would be happy to help score (or fully score) for the contests I attend in 2013. I am also willing to train via GoToMeeting anytime...















Sean







F2







F2 wrote - They all had minimal previous experience with it







this is an untrue statement, some of us, including me, have much experience with SeeYou Competition. Make sure you have your facts correct.







Will be watching to see how this unfolds, good luck. I support the SSA competition committee approach, I fly a ASW20 BL 8-)


Sean, I am not fighting you on this issue, rather I am very interested how a contest would be validated by the SSA competition committee if WINSCORE was not used. If SeeYou competition is used 'out of the box' and *no* specialized script was used than it should be simple. If a specialized script is written and used then that would be, in my opinion, a different ball for the SSA competition committee and the competitors. I would also like to see SeeYou used for scoring of SSA sanctioned competitions but I am not sure that SeeYou can be customized enough via it's scripting to support all of the current SSA competition rules.

Regarding specifics of others all I can accurately report on is that the 2011 contests in Uvalde, pre-Worlds, was scored using SeeYou by Leo Buckley.

My experience with SeeYou Comp comes from HG competitions, same circus different clowns. No accurate way to describe MUCH, like asking how long will it take to Solo a glider? It depends.

Which is easier or better to score with? Again, it is like asking which is a better glider; ASW-27B or Ventus-2BX? It depends on many factors.

Both programs work well and if the person(s) driving them is PC literate and process oriented it helps greatly.

Areas of comparison(s):

Administration and setup - The advantage goes to WINSCORE as it is integrated with the SSA contest registration facilities and the only manual efforts you need are to reflect changes. Furthermore WINSCORE understands multiple classes within a single competition, 15M, 18M etc, and easily handles it.

Handling of flight logs - equivalent. SeeYou allows for automatic scanning of directories thus allowing for auto detection of new logs. If you want to allow flight submission via email then SeeYou can provide full automation of flight log detection, scoring and electronic production and publishing of scores. One major difference between the two programs is how a log is tied to a competitor; SeeYou uses the 3 character flight logger identifier (not serial number) and WINSCORE uses the contest id. How many pilots know their flight logger id? Of their backup logger(s)? There are ways to manually associate logs and pilot the first time within SeeYou. Not hard to do but is a procedural difference for the pilots.

Handling exceptions - Slight advantage to WINSCORE. Both problems flag or warn of errors found like start height, finish height, airspace and the scorer has to go validate the error and assign the penalty. While both programs identify WINSCORE recommends the value of the penalty. With SeeYou you either look up the penalty in the FAI rulebook and use the value or compute the value based on the formula provided.

Airspace and WP files - Both use files from the worldwide turnpoint website..

Task definition - Slight advantage to SeeYou. This is a very subjective one but many of us use SeeYou for defining tasks in our individual flying so we are familiar with.

Task sheets - very similar. SeeYou uses a format that many pilots are familiar with. If custom task sheets are used, as most SSA contest that I have been use, then WINSCORE is easier to cut and paste into a WORD document to start the creation process.

Scoresheets - very similar. The differences are formatting and procedural. WINSCORE is integrated with the SSA web site, SeeYou is integrated with www.soaringspot.com. The SeeYou results can easily be added to the SSA website but it would be a manual process instead of an automated one.

Archived flight logs - WINSCORE allows putting all IGC files in one zipped file and uploading to the SSA web site for easy down loads by competitors or racing fans. SeeYou uploads the IGC to www.soaringspot.com along with the scores *but* each IGC file must be downloaded individually.

Again either program will do the job, experience with them allows for smoother organization and scoring.

Regarding FAI versus US Rules. From a scoring perspective there is no difference, a scorer just needs to understand them and be prepared to apply them. There is no emotion involved when scoring. All of the differences, factual and emotional, that have been discussed between the rules have to do with pilot or safety issues. I have minimal, less than 10, SSA sanctioned competition experiences from a pilot perspective, more then 50 from my HG days including 3 world championships.

I am biased to the proposed US club class rules so that my ASW-20BL would be included 8-)

On Friday, November 30, 2012 11:39:25 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:

Again, it is like asking which is a better glider; ASW-27B or Ventus-2BX?

No Brainer here. The 27.

Ron, I'm curious. Would you rather fly your 20 b in Club Class or Sports class if both are held same time/place?
Sean Franke

On Friday, 30 November 2012 13:57:36 UTC-7, wrote:
Ron, I'm curious. Would you rather fly your 20 b in Club Class or Sports class if both are held same time/place?

Sean Franke

Club Class if contest is held in the west (strong conditions)
Sports Class if contest held in eastern 2/3rds of the country

I am using Parowan as an example, with stronger conditions, specifically wind, the long wings and heavy ships, DUO's and motor gliders and 18m, have the advantage. The performance spread is just too high when trying to determine good tasks.

Ron,

To be honest, I was fairly open to a slight opening of the Club range as well. But as others point out, once you open that can of worms it will never end. The cleanest solution is to stick with the Club range. The compromise would be to task to the FAI Club handicap Range, but allow others to compete.

I hope that a narrow enough range is agreed upon that ensures a 50/50 split of AAT and AT. The key is reasonably challenging AT's for the top guys shooting for Worlds. We are talking about a National Championship here!

Thanks!

Sean

On Friday, 30 November 2012 14:37:46 UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Ron,



To be honest, I was fairly open to a slight opening of the Club range as well. But as others point out, once you open that can of worms it will never end. The cleanest solution is to stick with the Club range. The compromise would be to task to the FAI Club handicap Range, but allow others to compete.



I hope that a narrow enough range is agreed upon that ensures a 50/50 split of AAT and AT. The key is reasonably challenging AT's for the top guys shooting for Worlds. We are talking about a National Championship here!



Thanks!



Sean

Sean I hear what you are saying but you have to find the balance to ensure enough participation while also maintaining a competitive landscape for all folks flying in the competition. I know that I am not going to be in contention to win a National Championship or participate at the world so if decide to fly a competition I view myself as a subsidizer. To justify the investment it takes to fly a competition I have to believe I will get something in return.

Ron,

Sorry if this is already understood, but I want to clarify just in case. As this "US Club Class" conversation currently stands, the only 2013 event which MAY have a "US Club Class" would be the US Sports Class Nationals. US Sports Class will still exist "as is" for all regional events unless an organizer decides to apply for a waiver, etc. I am not aware of any contests planning on seeking a waiver yet, although I am considering it for Ionia. So, we are all looking at competing in "traditional" US rules based Sports Class for all 2013 US regional contests. Nothing changes there.

And, the 2013 Sports Class Nationals will only have a "US Club Class" IF 12+ gliders freely register for US Club Class AND are within the handicap range allowed (whatever it ends up being).

Personally, I do think pilots should have the option to stay in Sports class or choose to fly club (if flying a glider within the FAI Club Class handicap range, whatever that ends up being). This would offer all pilots with "Club" level ships the best of both worlds, free will options to choose either racing format and no chance for anybody to be "left behind." The question comes down to at what point do we over-extend the handicap range. Why not at least start with the established range (or very close to it)? In other words, Is this A) US "Club" Class or just B) US Sports Class low.

Sean

On Nov 30, 6:03Â*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
Ron,

Sorry if this is already understood, but I want to clarify just in case. Â*As this "US Club Class" conversation currently stands, the only 2013 event which MAY have a "US Club Class" would be the US Sports Class Nationals. Â*US Sports Class will still exist "as is" for all regional events unless an organizer decides to apply for a waiver, etc. Â*I am not aware of any contests planning on seeking a waiver yet, although I am considering it for Ionia. Â*So, we are all looking at competing in "traditional" US rules based Sports Class for all 2013 US regional contests. Â*Nothing changes there.

And, the 2013 Sports Class Nationals will only have a "US Club Class" IF 12+ gliders freely register for US Club Class AND are within the handicap range allowed (whatever it ends up being).

Personally, I do think pilots should have the option to stay in Sports class or choose to fly club (if flying a glider within the FAI Club Class handicap range, whatever that ends up being). Â*This would offer all pilots with "Club" level ships the best of both worlds, free will options to choose either racing format and no chance for anybody to be "left behind." Â*The question comes down to at what point do we over-extend the handicap range. Â*Why not at least start with the established range (or very close to it)? Â*In other words, Is this A) US "Club" Class or just B) US Sports Class low.

Sean

No waiver is needed to run a club class regionals using whatever
handicap range you want. All that's needed is interested pilots and
contest organizer. Go for it.

5.7 ‡ â€* Competition Classes
5.7.1 ‡ â€* The gliders eligible to compete are described in Rule 6.12.
5.7.2 ‡ â€* A competition can include more than one handicapped class
5.7.2.1 ‡ â€* Entries to a competition class can be restricted based on
criteria specified by the contest organizers on the application
for sanction form. Possible criteria include (but are not limited to)
maximum wingspan or a handicap range (or a combination).
5.7.2.2 ‡ â€* The handicap ranges of competition classes may overlap.
5.7.2.3 ‡ â€* Competition classes can be labeled, promoted and tasked to
appeal to pilots by skill level rather than or in addition to
limitation on gliders.

The level of factually wrong assertions in this series of posts,
petition, and email campaign is not advancing the discussion

And, the 2013 Sports Class Nationals will only have a "US Club Class" IF 12+ gliders freely register for US Club Class AND are within the handicap range allowed (whatever it ends up being).

And if you can't get 12 gliders to show up, the solution is to
further restrict the handicap range?

John Cochrane

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:42:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The U.S. is moving towards recognizing the Club Class in 2013. A poll has been created to validate interest in establishing FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy in this new class. If approved the U.S. Club Class would be the ONLY U.S. racing class under FAI (IGC) racing rules.



Please sign the petition IF YOU are interested in supporting or flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy.



In the optional personal comment section please enter (if applicable):

1. Your position on the US seeding list.

2. If you have access to or own a Club Class glider, what type.

3. If you are familiar with IGC rules and prefer those rules over US rules.

4. If you would financially or otherwise support development of the US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules.

5. If you don't currently fly US contests but would start flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules.

6. If you currently fly US contests (Standard, Open, 15m, 18m or Sports) and are interested in flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules.

7. Any other comments welcome!



Link to petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...out-exception/



Sean Franke

US Club Class Team Member

Sean(s),

I share BB's and UH's frustration with the level of nonsense in this thread..

Demanding that the organizer (KS) run the 2013 Club Class by FAI rules after the event being sanctioned and resources committed is simply a non-starter.

Gutting the contest to hold the Club Class somewhere else is also a non-starter.

Rather than all the bluster and rabble rousing rhetoric, commit your efforts to where your mouths are. Procure a waiver to run a regional club class contest under FAI rules by making the convincing case that it will not be less safe than one conducted under US Rules.

Hold the contest and demonstrate that it is popular (and take the financial risk).

I.e put up or shut up.

QT