A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Winch Way Is Up !!



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old November 1st 03, 01:54 AM
soarski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bob Johnson wrote in message ...
Eggert --

You've been such a graet help to us I hate to ask one more favor, but
could you translate these pages for us poor old igorant cowboys?

Computer translations are hilarious.

Thanks,

Boob Johnson

Eggert Ehmke wrote:

Craig Freeman wrote:

I am looking for a dependable way to cut Plasma rope. A guillotine
will be installed as soon as this question is answered. Any ideas
would be appreciated.


You may want to have a look at
http://www.aec-landau.de/projekte/PE-Seil/vortrag.htm

They have modified their winch to cut their PE cable. You find the email
address of the author at the end of that page.
Eggert




I very quickly looked for the cutting method:

Seems to me they converted their Guilutine to have a Brass Anvil on
which a cutting device will cut the Cord/rope, Like an axe or
similar. Guess more direct rather than shearing?

Dieter
  #22  
Old November 1st 03, 02:30 AM
Eggert Ehmke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

soarski wrote:

I very quickly looked for the cutting method:

Seems to me they converted their Guilutine to have a Brass Anvil on
which a cutting device will cut the Cord/rope, Like an axe or
similar. Guess more direct rather than shearing?


That's my understanding too. I can try to translate the complete article,
but this will take some time.

Eggert
  #23  
Old November 3rd 03, 08:13 AM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...
Bob Johnson wrote:
Actually, Craig is being too modest. In a few months of spare time work

this
spring, he single-handedly engineered and built a double drum machine...


Whats the point of the second drum? Great pics, BTW).

Tony V. (aero tows ~1300, winch tows)

http://www.soarcsa.org/pdf/winch_proposal.pdf

Have a look at page 10. Look at the number of vertical feet a two drum
winch can achieve. No tow plane can match this. Here's a good example
http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk/ of 200 members using winch launch, but
with a tow plane for wave tows. There are also a substantial number of
private gliders in the club. Prior to using the winch, they using reverse
pulley auto tows.

Launch rate is important, given a large number of gliders. Dragging two or
more wires to the launch point is the only sensible way to do this.
Differential are not really the best solution as they do burn up fairly
quickly if one side is locked. Transfer cases and dog clutches are fairly
common solutions.

Frank Whiteley


  #24  
Old November 3rd 03, 08:16 AM
F.L. Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Eggert Ehmke" wrote in message
...
soarski wrote:

I very quickly looked for the cutting method:

Seems to me they converted their Guilutine to have a Brass Anvil on
which a cutting device will cut the Cord/rope, Like an axe or
similar. Guess more direct rather than shearing?


That's my understanding too. I can try to translate the complete article,
but this will take some time.

Eggert


During rope break training, has the 'float' of spectra been an issue? In
our limited used of 1000ft of spectra on the end of the steel wire, it was
seen to float in a large arc after release. This hang time might be
problematic in the event of an actual break.

Frank Whiteley


  #25  
Old November 5th 03, 12:31 AM
Stephen Haley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Most European winches are hydraulic drives.

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Antti --

I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?

Thanks again,

BJ

Antti Glad wrote:

There are some very nice advantages to a winch (wouldn't think twice
about getting a launch even if the weather does not look so great, we
had some great fun launching to landing circuit just for the heck of
it when it was raining last summer). We've got a package deal in our
club, unlimited launches for a reasonable price. It's just very
economical (make no mistake though, I do appreciate the convenience of
an aerotow as well). Still, a winch launch will teach you how to make
the best of the conditions as you don't have much time to find a
thermal.

We've got a "factory built" winch from Germany a few years back, top
of the notch with turbos and whatnot- if you're interested, have a
look at http://www.saunalahti.fi/kily/paasivu.htm. Click on "kalusto",
the fourth button on the left frame and then "vintturi" on the right
frame. Sorry, it's all in Finnish :-)

Kind regards,

Antti



  #26  
Old November 5th 03, 02:03 AM
Martin Gregorie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:10:15 -0600, Bob Johnson
wrote:

Antti --

I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?

Supacats, anyway, have a massive purpose designed gearbox mounted
between the twin drums. It is driven via a fluid clutch and drives the
two outputs via dog clutches as well as the oscillating pay-on arms.
There are three separate brake systems (one on each drum, plus one on
the output side of the fluid clutch). The drum brakes have independent
hydraulic circuits connected to separate brake levers. The input brake
and the output dog clutches are mechanically interconnected on a
single lever - it moves sideways to select left, right or no drum and
back to apply the brake on the clutch output. In addition there are
payout brake levers that apply light pressure to the drum calipers
while the cable is being pulled out.

The separate throttle connects to the Deutz diesel via a profiled cam
that gives a more or less linear power response. By that I mean that
more or less equal movements give similar power increments over the
whole range. It makes smooth launches a lot easier.

Safety: pulling rather than pushing the throttle cuts the motor. Both
guillotines are operated simultaneously from an in-cab hydraulic
circuit or, if this fails, each can be fired mechanically from
outside. A flashing yellow light on top the cap operates when the
winch is running and in gear. Nobody touches either cable when its
flashing.

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

HTH

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

  #27  
Old November 5th 03, 03:30 AM
Bob Johnson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin --

A very good description, thanks for providing it!

As an experiment, we attempted to use the differential that came in the
same heavy duty pickup truck that furnished our 454 c.i. engine. This
unit was mounted as you would expect between the twin drums and one drum
was braked by its respective master cylinder brake lever, leaving the
power to be applied to the opposite drum. This arrangement went fine for
about an half-dozen launches, when the diff over-heated and eventually
gave up the ghost.

Thus we learned that the differential feature as we were using it would
have to be disabled and a couple of dog clutches would have to be
devised in order to turn our winch into a true double-drum unit.

BJ



Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:10:15 -0600, Bob Johnson
wrote:

Antti --

I really appreciate that photo. It appears to be a twin drum machine
with right angle drives to each drum. Do you know how the builders got
that power to go around the corner, that is, does it use a conventional
automotive-type differential, angle gears, or what?

Supacats, anyway, have a massive purpose designed gearbox mounted
between the twin drums. It is driven via a fluid clutch and drives the
two outputs via dog clutches as well as the oscillating pay-on arms.
There are three separate brake systems (one on each drum, plus one on
the output side of the fluid clutch). The drum brakes have independent
hydraulic circuits connected to separate brake levers. The input brake
and the output dog clutches are mechanically interconnected on a
single lever - it moves sideways to select left, right or no drum and
back to apply the brake on the clutch output. In addition there are
payout brake levers that apply light pressure to the drum calipers
while the cable is being pulled out.

The separate throttle connects to the Deutz diesel via a profiled cam
that gives a more or less linear power response. By that I mean that
more or less equal movements give similar power increments over the
whole range. It makes smooth launches a lot easier.

Safety: pulling rather than pushing the throttle cuts the motor. Both
guillotines are operated simultaneously from an in-cab hydraulic
circuit or, if this fails, each can be fired mechanically from
outside. A flashing yellow light on top the cap operates when the
winch is running and in gear. Nobody touches either cable when its
flashing.

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

HTH

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

  #28  
Old November 5th 03, 05:17 AM
W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut. The
windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or something
similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must be protected
with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.

If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.

One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
driving the winch.

At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked his
car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a safe
distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many thousands of
winch launches every year for a very long time. The cable broke and flew
back, trashing the back of his car and round the car to break one of the
front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and asked who had run into
him.

This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth taking.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

snip

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

Martin Gregorie




  #29  
Old November 5th 03, 06:45 AM
Bob Johnson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Bill --

After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that
synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during
breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a
feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy.

BJ

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut. The
windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or something
similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must be protected
with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.

If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.

One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
driving the winch.

At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked his
car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a safe
distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many thousands of
winch launches every year for a very long time. The cable broke and flew
back, trashing the back of his car and round the car to break one of the
front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and asked who had run into
him.

This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth taking.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

snip

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

Martin Gregorie

  #30  
Old November 5th 03, 10:09 AM
Dave Martin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

All the more reasons for getting funding for trails
in the UK!



At 05:54 05 November 2003, Bob Johnson wrote:
Hi Bill --

After my limited experience with it, I can't help but
think that
synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty
to work with during
breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled.
It's light as a
feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely
no energy.

BJ

'W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).' wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open
while actually
launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors
and windows shut. The
windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with
Lexan or something
similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not
glazed must be protected
with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.

If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will,
it can get inside the
winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.

One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the
back window slightly
open. The cable broke, came in through the window
and attacked his
clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape,
and has given up
driving the winch.

At another club one of the most experienced of all
winch drivers parked his
car directly behind the winch and facing it, what
he thought was a safe
distance away. This was at a busy club which has
done many thousands of
winch launches every year for a very long time.
The cable broke and flew
back, trashing the back of his car and round the car
to break one of the
front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and
asked who had run into
him.

This sort of thing does not happen very often so it
takes people by
surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and
is just not worth taking.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove 'ic' to reply.


'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
...



Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater
for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

Martin Gregorie





 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow? Gary Boggs Soaring 172 November 13th 03 07:59 PM
Tost internal Winch HL Falbaum Soaring 3 September 24th 03 02:31 PM
using winch instead of aerotow goneill Soaring 5 August 27th 03 02:46 PM
Winch cable Bill Daniels Soaring 5 August 24th 03 11:13 PM
Using Plasma Rope For Winch Tows Craig Freeman Soaring 56 August 24th 03 10:55 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.