Question about the APG-77

In message , Scott Ferrin
writes
In the latest AW&ST it mentions the F-22's radar as having a range of
"over 100 miles" and implies that it's greater than the F-15's. I
recall reading MANY times in the 80's of the Eagle's radar being more
like 150 miles and the Tomcat's nearly 200.

Depends on your target. If you're looking for a Bear at 40,000 feet then
you'll get ranges limited by the max scale on the scope That number
makes for a good advertising brochure, and isn't even unfair since the
Tomcat (and the F-15 if doing 'home defence') was worried about Big
******* Bombers back then.

I've also read that the
ASG-18 in the YF-12 (which was the one the AWG-9 was based on) was
good for over 300. So what gives? Are they purposly underselling
the APG-77? Is the "over 100 miles" figure against fighter-sized
targets while the high figures of the other radars were against
bomber-sized targets?

I'd guess exactly that - started to write the above and then realised
you'd hit the same point yourself. If you're defending against Bears,
Badgers and Backfires then radar ranges against large bombers/airliners
are fair comparison: these days I'd guess the figures are for more
fighter-size targets.


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Robey Price wrote:

snip

Speaking of trade...Guy got anything to trade me for Ritchie's two
Corona Harvest interviews (if you don't have them)...or other SEA
"stuff" I might have to interest you.

We'll have to compare collections to see -- I don't have Ritchie's
interviews. It's been some years since I got the stuff from Maxwell, so I
don't have anything new from them as far as CHECO etc. I'm probably going to
be a bit busy this week, so it may take me a while to give you a list of what
I've got from them.

Guy

In article ,
wrote:

Scott Ferrin wrote:

In the latest AW&ST it mentions the F-22's radar as having a range of
"over 100 miles" and implies that it's greater than the F-15's. I
recall reading MANY times in the 80's of the Eagle's radar being more
like 150 miles and the Tomcat's nearly 200. I've also read that the
ASG-18 in the YF-12 (which was the one the AWG-9 was based on) was
good for over 300. So what gives? Are they purposly underselling
the APG-77? Is the "over 100 miles" figure against fighter-sized
targets while the high figures of the other radars were against
bomber-sized targets? Inquiring minds want to know.

There was an AvLeak article a year or two ago comparing the then current
planar array radars in the F-16C and F-15C with the AESA variants of
both. All ranges quoted were against 1 sq.m. targets, roughly
representative of a reduced observable fighter (i.e., F-16C/F-18E/F with
RAM, coated canopies, intake mods, etc.) or a non-stealthy cruise
missile, while the standard fighter radar spec. is often based on a
nominal 5 sq. m. fighter target, a fair average for the Vietnam era. The
F-15 has a lot bigger frontal RCS than that, by most accounts. Lots of
corners, and the radar can look right down the intakes and see the fan
blades.

This is from memory so don't treat it as gospel, but IIRC the AESA
version for the F-16C was credited with a range (look-down IIRR) of
between 70-80nm, with the exact figure classified; the standard APG-68
was credited with a range about 1/3rd of that against the same target, or
23.3 - 26.7nm. I don't remember the F-15C w/APG-63(V1) spec, but I think
the AESA requirement was 90nm, and the radar was actually doing somewhat
better, 105nm or so. The F-22 radar spec was quoted as something like
115nm, but was again doing somewhat better, IIRC somewhere in the
125-140nm range. If you're looking head-on at a Buff, 747 or Bear, you
can obviously do a lot better. ISTR there were lookdown detections made
by F-15Cs during DS on 'dirty' (tanks, armament underwing) fighters, of
at least 60nm and maybe 80nm (can't remember, and too lazy to pull out
the magazine with the account). Depending on the aspect and the
particular stores carried, I wouldn't be surprised if the RCS on a
MiG/Sukhoi was up in the 15-20 range if not higher. Unfortunately, the
person on this NG most likely to be able to answer your question with the
real skinny, Harry Andreas, is almost certainly prohibited from doing so.

I read the article with interest and remember thinking that the numbers
seemed funny. As you assert, I am prohibited from posting further details
unless I wanted to lose my job.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:11:19 -0700, (Harry
Andreas) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Scott Ferrin wrote:

In the latest AW&ST it mentions the F-22's radar as having a range of
"over 100 miles" and implies that it's greater than the F-15's. I
recall reading MANY times in the 80's of the Eagle's radar being more
like 150 miles and the Tomcat's nearly 200. I've also read that the
ASG-18 in the YF-12 (which was the one the AWG-9 was based on) was
good for over 300. So what gives? Are they purposly underselling
the APG-77? Is the "over 100 miles" figure against fighter-sized
targets while the high figures of the other radars were against
bomber-sized targets? Inquiring minds want to know.

There was an AvLeak article a year or two ago comparing the then current
planar array radars in the F-16C and F-15C with the AESA variants of
both. All ranges quoted were against 1 sq.m. targets, roughly
representative of a reduced observable fighter (i.e., F-16C/F-18E/F with
RAM, coated canopies, intake mods, etc.) or a non-stealthy cruise
missile, while the standard fighter radar spec. is often based on a
nominal 5 sq. m. fighter target, a fair average for the Vietnam era. The
F-15 has a lot bigger frontal RCS than that, by most accounts. Lots of
corners, and the radar can look right down the intakes and see the fan
blades.

This is from memory so don't treat it as gospel, but IIRC the AESA
version for the F-16C was credited with a range (look-down IIRR) of
between 70-80nm, with the exact figure classified; the standard APG-68
was credited with a range about 1/3rd of that against the same target, or
23.3 - 26.7nm. I don't remember the F-15C w/APG-63(V1) spec, but I think
the AESA requirement was 90nm, and the radar was actually doing somewhat
better, 105nm or so. The F-22 radar spec was quoted as something like
115nm, but was again doing somewhat better, IIRC somewhere in the
125-140nm range. If you're looking head-on at a Buff, 747 or Bear, you
can obviously do a lot better. ISTR there were lookdown detections made
by F-15Cs during DS on 'dirty' (tanks, armament underwing) fighters, of
at least 60nm and maybe 80nm (can't remember, and too lazy to pull out
the magazine with the account).


I got thinking about it and I remember reading something like that in
AirTime's Gulf War Debrief. One of the Eagle pilots mentions tracking
a low flying Mig-23 (a smallish fighter) at 80+ miles.

In article , Scott Ferrin wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:11:19 -0700, (Harry
Andreas) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Scott Ferrin wrote:

In the latest AW&ST it mentions the F-22's radar as having a range of
"over 100 miles" and implies that it's greater than the F-15's. I
recall reading MANY times in the 80's of the Eagle's radar being more
like 150 miles and the Tomcat's nearly 200. I've also read that the
ASG-18 in the YF-12 (which was the one the AWG-9 was based on) was
good for over 300. So what gives? Are they purposly underselling
the APG-77? Is the "over 100 miles" figure against fighter-sized
targets while the high figures of the other radars were against
bomber-sized targets? Inquiring minds want to know.

There was an AvLeak article a year or two ago comparing the then current
planar array radars in the F-16C and F-15C with the AESA variants of
both. All ranges quoted were against 1 sq.m. targets, roughly
representative of a reduced observable fighter (i.e., F-16C/F-18E/F with
RAM, coated canopies, intake mods, etc.) or a non-stealthy cruise
missile, while the standard fighter radar spec. is often based on a
nominal 5 sq. m. fighter target, a fair average for the Vietnam era. The
F-15 has a lot bigger frontal RCS than that, by most accounts. Lots of
corners, and the radar can look right down the intakes and see the fan
blades.

This is from memory so don't treat it as gospel, but IIRC the AESA
version for the F-16C was credited with a range (look-down IIRR) of
between 70-80nm, with the exact figure classified; the standard APG-68
was credited with a range about 1/3rd of that against the same target, or
23.3 - 26.7nm. I don't remember the F-15C w/APG-63(V1) spec, but I think
the AESA requirement was 90nm, and the radar was actually doing somewhat
better, 105nm or so. The F-22 radar spec was quoted as something like
115nm, but was again doing somewhat better, IIRC somewhere in the
125-140nm range. If you're looking head-on at a Buff, 747 or Bear, you
can obviously do a lot better. ISTR there were lookdown detections made
by F-15Cs during DS on 'dirty' (tanks, armament underwing) fighters, of
at least 60nm and maybe 80nm (can't remember, and too lazy to pull out
the magazine with the account).


I got thinking about it and I remember reading something like that in
AirTime's Gulf War Debrief. One of the Eagle pilots mentions tracking
a low flying Mig-23 (a smallish fighter) at 80+ miles.

Another good article in this week's AvWeek on the capabilities of
the APG-79 in the F/A-18E/F wrt netcentric warefare.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur