IFR student

Cecil,
A number of times while teaching at RHV, I've returned when the field was still IFR.
On one occasion recently we flew the ILS 30L approach to SJC and when we broke
out of the clouds, diverted to RHV. In another case, we flew an approach into
Hayward, followed I-880 and I-680 to the field and got in under special VFR.
In both of those cases, having a GPS wouldn't have helped anyway, since the MDA
is so high on that approach.
Max T, MCFI



The only drawback is that my home airport,
Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I currently fly
have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,, unfortunately they
aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly), so we can only take
advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get back) at my home airport
around the time we plan returning to RHV.

I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
it's got high minimums, and the approach controllers around SJC
are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC
day. So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
when possible.

Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
those airports were a little closer.

By the way, I agree, a good lapboard is not the obvious pilot
gadget that comes to mind before you start IFR training, but
after a few lessons, it'll move up on your list of priorities.

-- dave j
--

Jeff wrote in message ...
the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for you.

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
for real.

So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
easiest and especially the safest.

thanks
Gerald

Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
those airports were a little closer.

Hee hee.... that's where we 'be' too! That and WVI and SNS. I'm with you
too on the point of I wish I coud find IAPs closer. Heck, when I start my
Commercial rating I will be able to get two lessons for the time it takes me
to do one instrument lesson.

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
"Dave Jacobowitz" wrote in message
om...
I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
it's got high minimums, and the approach controllers around SJC
are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC
day. So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
when possible.



By the way, I agree, a good lapboard is not the obvious pilot
gadget that comes to mind before you start IFR training, but
after a few lessons, it'll move up on your list of priorities.

-- dave j
--

Jeff wrote in message
...
the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for
you.

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
for real.

So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
easiest and especially the safest.

thanks
Gerald

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:

I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
it's got high minimums,

VOR/DME RWY 31 is good down to 460/1.
Those are not particularly high minimums for a VOR/DME approach.
PAO weather only goes below 500 and 1 maybe six hours per year.


and the approach controllers around SJC
are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC day.

Sometimes you'll wait even when it's not IMC. The approach path is
incompatible with SJC operations. That's the real problem with that
approach.


So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
when possible.

Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
those airports were a little closer.

PAO has a fantastic GPS approach. It was designed not to conflict with SJC.
Unlike the VOR/DME, the only delays I've ever experienced getting on the GPS
approach were due to the traffic volume into PAO on the GPS. If you're
going to be based at PAO and want to realize the utility and convenience of
your instrument rating, you'll need to be equipped for and proficient at
flying the GPS approach.

If you can train in an airplane with IFR GPS and have a CFII who doesn't
consider GPS approaches as some kind of afterthought in a modern pilot's bag
of tricks, you can easily pick them up with little extra training time.
After all, you always have to come home from each lesson, and you can fly
the GPS approach every time you come home if you want to.

Craig Prouse wrote in message ...

(The PAO)
VOR/DME RWY 31 is good down to 460/1.
Those are not particularly high minimums for a VOR/DME approach.
PAO weather only goes below 500 and 1 maybe six hours per year.

This is correct. I was wrong.

Having no access to IFR GPS and therefore not flown any GPS
approaches, but having looked at a lot of the
plates, many these approaches seem to be on the order of
850-900 and 1. For a few airports I know, such as KHAF,
which is frequenlty clear or has a very low layer, that
would appear to make them more or less useless.

(waiting to get the PAO VOR/DME 31 apch)

Sometimes you'll wait even when it's not IMC. The approach path is
incompatible with SJC operations. That's the real problem with that
approach.

Yeah, as an IFR student on a budget, I have noticed myself starting
to mentally convert EFC times into dollars. "hold north of foobs,
expect clearance for bar approach in forty-one of your hard-earned
bucks."

Of course, the worst is on the ground, engine running, waiting
for t/o clearance.

PAO has a fantastic GPS approach. It was designed not to conflict with SJC.
Unlike the VOR/DME, the only delays I've ever experienced getting on the GPS
approach were due to the traffic volume into PAO on the GPS. If you're
going to be based at PAO and want to realize the utility and convenience of
your instrument rating, you'll need to be equipped for and proficient at
flying the GPS approach.

This is good information. None of the trainer aircraft my club has,
except a Duchess and a Bonanza, have GPS, which a bummer. I don't
think either of those planes would be a good choice for me getting
my IA.

In any case, for *lots* of reasons, I think that if I want to
realize the utility and convenience of my instrument raiting,
I'll want access to better equipment. (That said, I'm already
getting a lot of satisfaction in just being a more proficient
and precise pilot.)


-- dave j

I got my instrument ticket out of PAO, and regularly used KHWD, KOAK and
KLVK for practice (and the checkride, too).

From PAO, LVK is 20nm, OAK is 16nm, and HWD is 12nm. They have a wide
variety of ILS, LOC, VOR, VOR/DME and GPS approaches. Even in a spam can,
that's maybe 10-15 minutes enroute, there and back. The only downside is
that NORCAL approach may tell you no way if you try to practice them VFR,
but then again, you could just file and wait on the ground a bit.

Salinas, Watsonville and Monterey, a little farther out, are great for
practicing in actual for much of the year. My first practice approach ever
was a wide-eyed white-knuckled ILS into MRY 10R, on a VV001-1/8 coastal fog
layer sort of day. Talk about an instant humility lesson!!

Best of luck with your training and budget.

"Dave Jacobowitz" wrote in message
om...
I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
it's got high minimums, and the approach controllers around SJC
are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC
day. So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
when possible.

Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
those airports were a little closer.

By the way, I agree, a good lapboard is not the obvious pilot
gadget that comes to mind before you start IFR training, but
after a few lessons, it'll move up on your list of priorities.

-- dave j
--

Jeff wrote in message
...
the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for
you.

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
for real.

So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
easiest and especially the safest.

thanks
Gerald

Come on down to Squadron2 at RHV. A number of new Cessna 172's and one older one with
GPS's in them (though you'd need to check which ones keep the databases up to date).
I've flown a lot out of PAO in the past, and I think the ground wait times are shorter at RHV.
It takes me about 3-4 minutes longer to get to RHV than PAO from my Mtn View home,
and last I checked the hobbs meters there go through the cash more slowly than at PAO.
Max T, MCFI


Dave Jacobowitz wrote in message om...
Craig Prouse wrote in message ...


In any case, for *lots* of reasons, I think that if I want to
realize the utility and convenience of my instrument raiting,
I'll want access to better equipment. (That said, I'm already
getting a lot of satisfaction in just being a more proficient
and precise pilot.)


-- dave j

Judah wrote
I would second the last statement here.

As would I - emphatically. As a practicing CFII, I will not, as a
rule, accept an instrument student with less than 200 hours.

But having that much VFR experience has been invaluable to me, both in my
ability to enjoy the hood flying experience (rather than getting frustrated
and bored quickly like a friend of mine did when he went straight into IFR
training) and focus on learning the IFR specifics, as opposed to first
having to learn how to control the plane.

That is absolutely dead on. In fact, when I first fly with an
instrument student, I don't even use the hood, do approaches or holds,
or care about IFR charts. All we do is the fundamentals of flight -
climbs and descents, turns and straight flight, and combinations of
the above. Maybe we track a VOR.

I look for the ability to level out and maintain altitude +/-50 ft,
roll out and maintain heading +/- 5 degrees, and hold airspeed +/- 5
kts. That's all - and that's in smooth air. I relax those tolerances
when it's bumpy. Any combination of inside and outside references is
fine. I don't expect the student to be within tolerances 100% of the
time, either, but I expect him not to consistently exceed tolerances,
and to take prompt corrective action when tolerances are exceeded.

A pilot who has been flying regularly (100+ hours a year) for a couple
of years can do this automatically, and it shows. Someone who is
inexperienced or uncurrent struggles with this, and that shows too.
Someone who struggles with basic airplane control using visual
references will struggle more if he has to do it solely on
instruments. He will need hours and hours of basic attitude
instrument flying before we can even think about moving on to holding
and approach procedures. That doesn't do anyone any good.

IFR skills build on VFR skills. IFR is all about going XC when you
can't see out the window. Before you start learning to do that,
become proficient in going XC when you CAN see out the window.

It's not just airplane control, either. It's radio work (primarily
communications with ATC). It's weather knowledge. It's airplane
familiarity. It's understandig of maps and the terrain they depict.
When learning to fly instruments, everything works in favor of the
experienced VFR pilot, and everything works against the guy who
decides to just jump into his instrument rating right after getting
the private. For that reason, I really do not recommend it.

Michael

(Michael) wrote
That is absolutely dead on. In fact, when I first fly with an
instrument student, I don't even use the hood, do approaches or
holds, or care about IFR charts. All we do is the fundamentals
of flight - climbs and descents, turns and straight flight, and
combinations of the above. Maybe we track a VOR.

Same here... no hood at all for the first couple of lessons.

Bob Moore

This may be a 'silly human question', but how does one legally land at an
airport if it is IFR at the airport and the plane doesn't have a GPS, yet
the only published instrument approach for that airport IS a GPS?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Max T, CFI" wrote in message
news:MqxBb.351137$ao4.1176913@attbi_s51...
Cecil,
A number of times while teaching at RHV, I've returned when the field was
still IFR.
On one occasion recently we flew the ILS 30L approach to SJC and when we
broke
out of the clouds, diverted to RHV. In another case, we flew an approach
into
Hayward, followed I-880 and I-680 to the field and got in under special
VFR.
In both of those cases, having a GPS wouldn't have helped anyway, since
the MDA
is so high on that approach.
Max T, MCFI



The only drawback is that my home airport,
Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I currently
fly
have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,, unfortunately they
aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly), so we can only take
advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get back) at my home
airport
around the time we plan returning to RHV.