A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #111  
Old May 15th 20, 09:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cookie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 8:25:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Has anyone investigated placing the tow hook directly over(or under) the tow planes center of gravity? This would keep the out of position glider from yanking the tow planes tail out of acceptable limits? The RC tow ships, I have seen, place the tow hook over the towing ships CG.
My 2 cents,
JJ


This is exactly how they do it with Radio control models! I tried towing radio controlled models with a tail hook on a 10' span cub....some success, many crashes....with Hook on top of wing...no problem...and they fly the model gliders really high on the tow plane. Needs some frame around the fin and horizontal stab to prevent rope entanglement....don't think it is safe for "real" towing...



Cookie
  #112  
Old May 15th 20, 09:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 398
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

Over 40 years ago a good friend of mine was killed while Flying a
Citarbria on areotow at Aboyne, Scotland.

The findings of the enquiry were that the release as on the floor of the
cockpit and could be reached while the inertia seatbelts allowed
movement. In turbulence if the belts locked it was not possible for
some pilots to reach the release. The glider pilot admitted losing sight
of the tug and failed to release.
As the result of that accident it was an airworthiness requirement that
the glider release was mounted near to the throttle. The requirement
that if a glider pilot lost sight of the tug FOR ANY REASON he should
immediately release.
We will not know the exact causes of the current accident for sometime,
speculation can be counter productive, however the two lessons above
are still valid.
I find it crazy that there are still tugs allowed to fly without the
release
in close proximity to the throttle and there are still glider pilots who do

not release when they should. Surely 40 years is enough time to learn a
lesson.

  #113  
Old May 15th 20, 01:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 88
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

Well, everything's been said but not everyone has said it yet. There is no one answer to this problem, it doesn't matter what "fly the airplane means.." If it's "keep your eyes on the tug and maintain proper position" or "release," what it really means is "do not kill the tow pilot.''

It doesn't matter if you have a reachable release handle, an inverted Schweizer hook, a TOST system or a guillotine, if the glider kites low enough you will be dead or badly injured. A sobering though for tow pilots everywhere.

It doesn't matter if the glider pilot is a 15 year old student or an instructor pilot, if they screw up the tow pilot most likely pays the fine.

In this most recent accident the glider pilot I am told was an instructor. How can we expect a low time student to react properly if an instructor is distracted? Look at the Front Royal accident, an instructor was flying in this situation and clearly above the tow plane. Why did he not release? There was a fatal tow plane accident at the USAF Academy soaring club, the instructor, an Academy student (the best of the best I was constantly told while I was in the USAF) was significantly above the tow plane and did not release.

It doesn't matter if the instructor is a "world aerobatic champion" if he failed to impart information to the student about what to do when one loses sight of the tow plane. Telling someone something and TEACHING someone are two different things.

Is it failure to use a check list or a failure of cockpit discipline? It doesn't matter and it won't matter until all involved in the sport including the SSA, the FAA, the NTSB, commercial operation managers, club presidents, ALL the tow pilots and glider pilots decide that it matters and more importantly take action to reduce the chances of it happening again. Unfortunately NOTHING can be done to completely eliminate these occurrences but we fly anyway.

Accidents in the aviation world will continue because gravity is a constant and human error is impossible to eliminate completely. Good luck my friends.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
  #114  
Old May 15th 20, 02:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

It could be effective for one of the glider pilots involved in a kiting fatality to tour the flying sites and share his/her experience and grief personally to glider pilots.

This will probably never happen but it would certainly help others realize the reality of the potential dangers and long lasting effects of a simple mistake.

  #115  
Old May 15th 20, 02:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Thu, 14 May 2020 18:09:15 -0700, Dirk_PW wrote:

So this confirms for me what I do on every flight is a good course of
action (even though it has been a very controversial subject on this
site)... That is, I hold the release handle during tow. No, I don't
latch my fingers around it and grip it like I'm coming out of a bull
riding chute on an angry bull. I do however, have physical contact with
it through the first 1000 ft of tow. I grip it with my index finger and
middle finger (mimicking a pair of scissors wanting to cut the handle).
There is no way to accidentally release in turbulence, but more
importantly there is no searching for the handle if I need to get off.
The other side benefit is that it prevents me from dealing with stupid
distractions in the cockpit since one hand is on the stick, the other is
touching the release.

Ok, let the negative reactions begin... (I've got my popcorn and beer).


I agree. That's what I was taught (for both winch and aero-tow) and
that's what I do. I like your reasoning too - fingers on the release
means yo have to make a concious decision to let go it it before you grab
anything else. I was also taught the 'lock and push up' canopy closing
routine from my first training flight, alongside the BGS's standard pre-
launch checklist.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #116  
Old May 15th 20, 02:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Fri, 15 May 2020 13:21:19 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Thu, 14 May 2020 18:09:15 -0700, Dirk_PW wrote:

So this confirms for me what I do on every flight is a good course of
action (even though it has been a very controversial subject on this
site)... That is, I hold the release handle during tow. No, I don't
latch my fingers around it and grip it like I'm coming out of a bull
riding chute on an angry bull. I do however, have physical contact
with it through the first 1000 ft of tow. I grip it with my index
finger and middle finger (mimicking a pair of scissors wanting to cut
the handle). There is no way to accidentally release in turbulence, but
more importantly there is no searching for the handle if I need to get
off. The other side benefit is that it prevents me from dealing with
stupid distractions in the cockpit since one hand is on the stick, the
other is touching the release.

Ok, let the negative reactions begin... (I've got my popcorn and beer).


I agree. That's what I was taught (for both winch and aero-tow) and
that's what I do. I like your reasoning too - fingers on the release
means yo have to make a concious decision to let go it it before you
grab anything else. I was also taught the 'lock and push up' canopy
closing routine from my first training flight, alongside the BGS's
standard pre- launch checklist.


s/BGS/BGA/



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #117  
Old May 15th 20, 04:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BG[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 9:47:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The glider was a 1-26.

Ramy


Too bad. A 1-26 flies fine without a canopy. I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, and though flying slower than on tow it wasn't terribly dramatic. Perhaps if training in 2-33s opening the canopy to experience it should be part of the course. It is the surprise and fear of the unknown which certainly contributes to the loss of concentration.

An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?



A common problem most tow plans have is the lack of a good way to see the glider. The mount rearview mirror at some distance from them on the wing struts and various places. Most tow pilots I have taked to say the field of view is very limited and they mostly use them while taking out the slack be fore launch. I todays world we back up cameras on out cars with overlays to help use back up. If we used a camera looking back, the tow pilot could see the glider easily. The screen could have a box the glider must be within. If not cut the rope. Addition software could also be implemented to cut the rope for them.

A second idea is a tension sensor. if there is a sustained high pull on the rope as you get with a kiting event. An alarm could go off or the rope automatically cut. Slack rope jerks are very short in duration and could easily be ignored.

John Scott was a very good friend of mine and I feel very sad for his loss and at the same time a bit upset at the glider pilot for not doing one of the most fundalmental things we teach students. If you can not see the tow plane " release immediately" people loose sight of the towplane long before things go completely bad.

there is addition video taking by the airport cameras that show the entire accident sequence. Some day when the NTSB gives its report, we will get a chance to see this maybe.

The tow rope was found 100 yards beyond the towplane in a small pile indicating it came down vertically. The glider over flew the towplane as it was about to crash or even after and caused the plane to flip over. This trapped the pilot inside where he burnt to death.

Negative G's could have prevented the pilot from reaching the release under his seat in the most dynamic period of energy transfer to the gliders speed and altitude. IT is this on set of this critical time is when the rope need to be cut.

The pull on the Schwiezer tow hook would have been nearly straight down and could have also been jabbed. Years of doing winch launches in a 1-26 and 2-33 say you need to push over to help reduce the release forces to open the release.

Tow pilots do the most dangerous part of getting us into the air many times each day. We in the glider do less. We need to find solutions to prevent another kiting fatality.

Buzz
  #118  
Old May 15th 20, 07:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Rakel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

Since we have now decided to re-invent the tow plane to put the tow hook on the CG, has anybody considered a canard design with a front or mid fuselage mounted engine?


  #119  
Old May 15th 20, 08:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:57:35 -0700, Rakel wrote:

Since we have now decided to re-invent the tow plane to put the tow hook
on the CG, has anybody considered a canard design with a front or mid
fuselage mounted engine?


Difficult: I've flown a Canard free flight model. Its CG was in front of
the wing and about 1/3 of the way along the wing:stabiliser gap in front
of the wing. The motor was on a short pylon above the CG.

Part of the design would be clear: put the pilot on the CG, fins and
rudders near the tips and anchor the towline no further back than the
wing LE, but where do you put the engine while keeping the propeller away
from the towline without making the poor thing far too nose-heavy?

Move the pilot back to the wing LE, put the engine immediately in front
of him and use a long, light carbon drive shaft to a prop at the front?

Maybe a bigger, more powerful Quickie with twin fins would be better?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickie_Aircraft

Or a Transavia Air Truck?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk

OTOH, just get Bert Rutan out of retirement and point him at the problem.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #120  
Old May 15th 20, 09:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 88
Default Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

Great ideas all around. Install a rear view camera...reinvent the tow plane. Has anyone ever tried to get an A&P to invert the Schweizer hook or extend the release handle so it would be easily reachable? It seemed to me that it required an act of God and an amendment to the Constitution to accomplish something like this. Maybe I was just being put off...

I had to argue for the purchase of a mixture cable for a Pawnee. I guess if you have enough money and are willing to spend it you can accomplish anything. It remains to be seen how quickly the commercial operations will come back after this Chinese Communist Virus has decimated our economy. People might not be willing to take the chance of exposing themselves to others and exponentially increase their chances of becoming ill. Don't expect the commercial operation owners or the club members to make big expenditures under these circumstances.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Towplane-Baron accident Jp Stewart Soaring 58 June 11th 18 10:03 PM
Fatal accident in Scotland Ian Soaring 51 September 6th 07 10:55 AM
Another fatal accident Mike the Strike Soaring 0 September 20th 06 11:50 PM
Fatal accident in Italy 2cernauta2 Soaring 1 April 4th 06 05:50 PM
Hawaii Fatal Accident Rocky Rotorcraft 0 July 25th 03 03:01 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.