Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)

wrote:
Dan Luke wrote:

wrote:


Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker

It's slower by 10 knots...

Says who?

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM


The POH

Also most of our club planes are brand new (8 years)... minus the
Cardinal and the Chieftains.


I seem to remember gettin 140-145 Knots true last time I flew the 177RG
last spring. Of course, with a 50 kt tailwind, I REALLY liked my ground
speed..

Dont base everything on the POH.. they can be overly optimistic at best
with regards to "cruise speed" and "top speed"

Dave

wrote:

Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker

It's slower by 10 knots...

Says who?

The POH

Also most of our club planes are brand new (8 years)... minus the
Cardinal and the Chieftains.

What are the book speeds for the Arrow?

The Cardinal RG will do 140+ KTAS. One that won't do that is out of rig or
has engine problems.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

" wrote in
ups.com:

So I've decided to buy a plane (in July of 2007), and I've come to a
dilemma. I learned to fly on a Piper Arrow and very much like that
plane, though I haven't flown one in over a year, what I have been
flying is a Cessna Cardinal 177 RGII, very nice plane, great handling
and a pleasure to fly as well, I live in Hawai'i and shipping plays a
big part in inflating the value of planes here... Any plane I buy I
will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into so I don't
care about the stock avionics packaged, hence my dilemma is as
follows...

I can either buy my flight clubs 177 for 50K (without avionics and a
high time engine (for 20K more the clubs mechanic will put a brand new
engine and prop on).

I can buy a Piper Arrow on the mainland and have it shipped to Hawai'i
for about 10K (from Cali), and refit that with the AVIDYNE system.

or...

I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the
AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock). And
have peace of mind in a brand new plane that will last a long time
without incurring added maintenance expenses.

Whichever one I buy I will be doing a "lease-back" to the club to allow
other guys to fly it, with a small profit for me (mainly to pay for gas
and maintenance on the plane when I fly it)

Any advice is appreciated.


I wouldn't recommend leasing back a $427,000 plane, even to a club. I
don't know how your club members treat your club's planes, and our club
members for the MOST part treat our planes wonderfully, but it takes just
one, and from my experience usually there are several...

There are different schools of thought on Lease Back in general - a
million threads in this group that you can read. I know because I
considered a leaseback on a new Cessna 172 a couple of years ago. But the
bottom line is that your fellow club members are probably not going to be
looking out for your $427,000 investment the way that you would, and they
will utilize the plane like any other in the club. So while you may have a
full 2000 hours before engine service, you'll still be replacing bald
tires, oil filters, wingtips, light bulbs, and switches at the same rate
whether you spend $427,000 or $127,000. In fact, you may have more of it
on the $427,000 if it is more popular with the club. But your hull damage
insurance bill will be significantly higher, which will inflate the hourly
rate to the club, which may offset the desire of the members to fly it,
especially if the membership is in the club to reduce their flying
expenses. Furthermore, some members may steer clear of a new plane in fear
of damaging it and being responsible.

I don't know what your club's rates are, what the usage is, or what planes
are available. But my guess is that you will be most profitable if you buy
the club's cardinal, or import one like it off the mainland, even if you
upgrade the engine, prop, and avionics. Especially if the club doesn't
already have an Arrow, I think you may find that people who did not learn
to fly on an Arrow may also shy away from it if they've flown high wing
all their life.

Judah wrote:
" wrote in
ups.com:

So I've decided to buy a plane (in July of 2007), and I've come to a
dilemma. I learned to fly on a Piper Arrow and very much like that
plane, though I haven't flown one in over a year, what I have been
flying is a Cessna Cardinal 177 RGII, very nice plane, great handling
and a pleasure to fly as well, I live in Hawai'i and shipping plays a
big part in inflating the value of planes here... Any plane I buy I
will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into so I don't
care about the stock avionics packaged, hence my dilemma is as
follows...

I can either buy my flight clubs 177 for 50K (without avionics and a
high time engine (for 20K more the clubs mechanic will put a brand new
engine and prop on).

I can buy a Piper Arrow on the mainland and have it shipped to Hawai'i
for about 10K (from Cali), and refit that with the AVIDYNE system.

or...

I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the
AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock). And
have peace of mind in a brand new plane that will last a long time
without incurring added maintenance expenses.

Whichever one I buy I will be doing a "lease-back" to the club to allow
other guys to fly it, with a small profit for me (mainly to pay for gas
and maintenance on the plane when I fly it)

Any advice is appreciated.


I wouldn't recommend leasing back a $427,000 plane, even to a club. I
don't know how your club members treat your club's planes, and our club
members for the MOST part treat our planes wonderfully, but it takes just
one, and from my experience usually there are several...

There are different schools of thought on Lease Back in general - a
million threads in this group that you can read. I know because I
considered a leaseback on a new Cessna 172 a couple of years ago. But the
bottom line is that your fellow club members are probably not going to be
looking out for your $427,000 investment the way that you would, and they
will utilize the plane like any other in the club. So while you may have a
full 2000 hours before engine service, you'll still be replacing bald
tires, oil filters, wingtips, light bulbs, and switches at the same rate
whether you spend $427,000 or $127,000. In fact, you may have more of it
on the $427,000 if it is more popular with the club. But your hull damage
insurance bill will be significantly higher, which will inflate the hourly
rate to the club, which may offset the desire of the members to fly it,
especially if the membership is in the club to reduce their flying
expenses. Furthermore, some members may steer clear of a new plane in fear
of damaging it and being responsible.

I don't know what your club's rates are, what the usage is, or what planes
are available. But my guess is that you will be most profitable if you buy
the club's cardinal, or import one like it off the mainland, even if you
upgrade the engine, prop, and avionics. Especially if the club doesn't
already have an Arrow, I think you may find that people who did not learn
to fly on an Arrow may also shy away from it if they've flown high wing
all their life.

Bottom line is that the price isn't a bother for me... the pilots who
rent my plane will be given the privelege of renting, not the right to
rent it, due to the advanced avionics and refurbishment I would do on a
used plane. Ultimatley I think that a 1970s Arrow would be the best
choice with an interior refurbishment, in terms of price, the only
question that will remain is how much do aftermarket installations of
Avidyne systems and Autopilots etc. really cost, am I going to get a
better "Deal" on the particular setup if I go with the brand new Arrow?

Check with Aviation Consumer. They have a 2-volume set that compares
all common production airplanes, and the $75 (or so) price is peanuts
compared with the cost of a purchase mistake.

Each model has its advantages. The Cardinal looks sexy, provides rain
protection, and is easy to get in and out. The Arrow has a simpler
landing gear and a nice clear baggage area.

Highly unlikely you will keep the plane for 40 years. Practically
unheard of.

I would recommend buying a single, non-retract airplane that will carry
the load you need to carry. Cessna 172 or 182 or a Piper Warrior or
Pathfinder. Retractable gear is a maintenance headache. With your short
hops, speed doesn't really matter. I would also recommend buying it
with the avionics you want, although with 10K in shipping costs you may
have a hard time finding exactly whay you want in Hawaii.

As for leaseback, a simple plane like a 172 or Warrior will rent MUCH
more often and the required insurance premium and required 100 hour
inspections will dictate that you rent it as much as possible if you
want to have any hope at all of breaking even or better.

If I were in your shoes I would either get a 172 or a 182, one of the
later models (1999 or so), but not a new one. New airplanes depreciate
a LOT the first year, so I'd let someone else take that hit. However an
older model that has the avionics I want, if I can find it, would do
even better financially, but would not have the newer planes
reliability. If you prefer the Piper line, then choose one of those.

Good luck.

Doug wrote:
Highly unlikely you will keep the plane for 40 years. Practically
unheard of.

One more reason why the mainland is different from Hawai'i... Two guys
at the airport have had their Cessnas for the better part of 50 years
now, one guy has a Cherokee Six he's had for 30, before that he had a
Piper cub for 20. Lot's of Beech Volpars are still in service with the
same people (or their grand-children) with which they were in service
beggining in the 30s, while one cargo airline (Kamaka Air) flies DC-3s
that it had fully restored, which I believe were old Trans-Pacific
(Aloha Airlines) DC-3s.

I would recommend buying a single, non-retract airplane that will carry
the load you need to carry. Cessna 172 or 182 or a Piper Warrior or
Pathfinder. Retractable gear is a maintenance headache. With your short
hops, speed doesn't really matter. I would also recommend buying it
with the avionics you want, although with 10K in shipping costs you may
have a hard time finding exactly whay you want in Hawaii.

Call me fickle, self-oriented, greedy, snobby, what have you, but I do
not fly and will not own a fixed-gear plane.

As for leaseback, a simple plane like a 172 or Warrior will rent MUCH
more often and the required insurance premium and required 100 hour
inspections will dictate that you rent it as much as possible if you
want to have any hope at all of breaking even or better.

Yes, but it will rent to people who wil bust it up too, I'm not looking
for volume, I'm looking for people who are willing to spend a bit more
than they normally would to get a premium product, which I can think of
at least 4 already.

If I were in your shoes I would either get a 172 or a 182, one of the
later models (1999 or so), but not a new one. New airplanes depreciate
a LOT the first year, so I'd let someone else take that hit. However an
older model that has the avionics I want, if I can find it, would do
even better financially, but would not have the newer planes
reliability. If you prefer the Piper line, then choose one of those.

No fixed gear, I would entertain a 182RG, but the 235 HP engine puts a
big bump up in that insurance over the 200 hp one in the 177 and the
Arrow, also I in particular dislike 172s for their stall
characteristics, they seem to break quickly and fall rather than stall
out.

Good luck.

Both the Arrow and the Cardinal...........and for that matter the Sierra,
were produced for ONE reason only. 200HP, retractable gear for commercial
students.

They are TRAINERS for the GI Bill guys of the 60's and 70's. All these
airplanes fly like trucks, have no control harmony to speak of, are not
particularly nice looking and mostly worn out.

The day the GI Bill ran out, which was in about 1978, true support for these
airplanes ran out as well.

If you like low performance and the feel of a truck...........any of the
three will suit you.


Karl
"Curator" N185KG

"karl gruber" wrote:

Both the Arrow and the Cardinal...........and for that matter the Sierra,
were produced for ONE reason only. 200HP, retractable gear for commercial
students.

BS.

True in the case of the Cutlass RG, perhaps; not true in the case of the
Cardinal RG.

And what's 200 hp got to do with it?


--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:24:10 -0700, "karl gruber"
wrote:

They are TRAINERS for the GI Bill guys of the 60's and 70's. All these
airplanes fly like trucks, have no control harmony to speak of, are not
particularly nice looking and mostly worn out.

Where did you get this from??? I have been flying a Cardinal for years
(and just purchased a Cardinal RG) and they fly wonderfully; far nicer
than a 172 for instance. Looks are in the eye of the beholder, but I
think Cardinals are beautiful.




randall g =%^) PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RG
http://www.telemark.net/randallg
Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:
http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
Vancouver's famous Kat Kam: http://www.katkam.ca