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SF Bay Area ---> Death Valley



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 7th 05, 06:54 AM
Jonathan Sorger
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Default SF Bay Area ---> Death Valley

I plan on taking my first trip from the Bay Area to Death Valley (
Furnace Creek) next week. I was wondering if I could pick the brains of
those familiar with the area.

It looks like Porterville - Kern Valley - China Lake is the safest route
to take. I have had a mountain checkout and am not thrilled about
staying below 1500' AGL to keep out of the MOAs in the Sierra Nevada
range.

I realize that you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can
anyone clue me in to whether or not they typically allow civilian
aircraft through at other altitudes during their operational hours?

Thanks,
  #2  
Old April 7th 05, 08:09 AM
RST Engineering
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Default

MOAs don't "allow" anybody. They simply give you VFR advisories and vectors
for military aircraft.

Remember, if a F-117 hits you, both of you die. This is to the military
advantage to avoid. Just talk to Joshua Approach and they will do their
best to keep you from hitting military aluminum.

Jim



"Jonathan Sorger" wrote in message
...
I plan on taking my first trip from the Bay Area to Death Valley (
Furnace Creek) next week. I was wondering if I could pick the brains of
those familiar with the area.

It looks like Porterville - Kern Valley - China Lake is the safest route
to take. I have had a mountain checkout and am not thrilled about
staying below 1500' AGL to keep out of the MOAs in the Sierra Nevada
range.

I realize that you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can
anyone clue me in to whether or not they typically allow civilian
aircraft through at other altitudes during their operational hours?

Thanks,



  #3  
Old April 7th 05, 08:15 AM
Peter Duniho
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Jonathan Sorger" wrote in message
...
[...]
I realize that you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can
anyone clue me in to whether or not they typically allow civilian
aircraft through at other altitudes during their operational hours?


Well, not to encourage flight through active MOAs, but...

You are permitted to fly through a MOA, whether active or not. Flying IFR,
ATC will often route you around, but VFR there are no restrictions. There
is no "do they allow civilian aircraft through". If you want to fly
through, you do.

That said, contacting the controlling facility is still a good idea. You
may get flight following, or a suggested altitude to fly that will keep you
out of the way of any users of the MOA. Or at the very least, you may be
able to provide additional information (depending on radar coverage) that
will help the users avoid you.

I have had generally good luck dealing with controlling facilities for
military special use airspace. In once case, they even suspended activities
in a restricted area long enough for me to cut through the corner, so that I
could deviate around a thunderstorm (I was VFR, contacting the military
facility using the information on my chart).

I'm not familiar with that specific route, but I think you're wise to want
to avoid low-level flight in the mountainous terrain. It's doable if you
have to, but flying higher will give you a lot more options, and will
probably result in a more comfortable flight.

Pete


  #4  
Old April 7th 05, 10:13 AM
Larry Dighera
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Default

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:09:29 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote in
::

Remember, if a F-117 hits you, both of you die.


Actually, in the last three civil/military MOCs of which I am aware,
all the military pilots escaped unscathed. Unfortunately two of the
three civilian pilots did not.
  #5  
Old April 7th 05, 12:33 PM
H.P.
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Default

MOAs are listed on the sectional's legend area and have specific hours of
operation, usually sunrise M to sunset F. The FSS has the info. Just limit
yourself to weekends and you're fine.


"Jonathan Sorger" wrote in message
...
I plan on taking my first trip from the Bay Area to Death Valley (
Furnace Creek) next week. I was wondering if I could pick the brains of
those familiar with the area.

It looks like Porterville - Kern Valley - China Lake is the safest route
to take. I have had a mountain checkout and am not thrilled about
staying below 1500' AGL to keep out of the MOAs in the Sierra Nevada
range.

I realize that you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can
anyone clue me in to whether or not they typically allow civilian
aircraft through at other altitudes during their operational hours?

Thanks,



  #6  
Old April 7th 05, 04:20 PM
John Harper
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Default

What are you flying? Generally (to DV or Vegas) I take what is
essentially V244, climbing up to Tuolomine Meadows on the North
side of the Yosemite park, then cross the ridge either at Tioga or
a little further south - the pass is clear on the sectional.
You need to be able to get to 13500'. At this time of the year,
assuming the weather is generally good, it should be fine - not too
bumpy. Obviously you want a day with only modest winds and no cloud
below 15000' or so.

It's a truly spectacular flight, I was thrilled the first time I
did it and the thrill doesn't get any less. As long as the weather is
good and the winds are low, it's as safe as mountain flying gets.
And the nice thing is that with some careful pilotage you can avoid
the MOAs completely.

In my experience the MOAs are generally hot on weekdays and cold on
weekends - which is what the sectional says too. I would not personally
be a huge fan of flying through a hot MOA, even though it is technically
allowed. Whilst mountain flying has its risks, at least mountains
pretty much stay put rather than whizzing about at Mach 2.

John

Jonathan Sorger wrote:

I plan on taking my first trip from the Bay Area to Death Valley (
Furnace Creek) next week. I was wondering if I could pick the brains of
those familiar with the area.

It looks like Porterville - Kern Valley - China Lake is the safest route
to take. I have had a mountain checkout and am not thrilled about
staying below 1500' AGL to keep out of the MOAs in the Sierra Nevada
range.

I realize that you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can
anyone clue me in to whether or not they typically allow civilian
aircraft through at other altitudes during their operational hours?

Thanks,

  #7  
Old April 7th 05, 04:59 PM
Thomas Borchert
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Default

John,

It's a truly spectacular flight,


I fully agree. But you really need benign weather for that route - and
a somewhat capable plane.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

  #8  
Old April 7th 05, 05:52 PM
Casey Wilson
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Jonathan Sorger" wrote in message
...
I plan on taking my first trip from the Bay Area to Death Valley (
Furnace Creek) next week. I was wondering if I could pick the brains of
those familiar with the area.

It looks like Porterville - Kern Valley - China Lake is the safest route
to take. I have had a mountain checkout and am not thrilled about
staying below 1500' AGL to keep out of the MOAs in the Sierra Nevada
range.

I realize that you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can
anyone clue me in to whether or not they typically allow civilian
aircraft through at other altitudes during their operational hours?


Hi Jonathan,

For starters, take a look at the north side of the Los Angeles
sectional. Just to the left of R-2505 and well inside the military complex
R-2508 and deeply imbedded in the MOA's is Inyokern airport, IYK. That's my
home patch. I just thought I'd start out with that so you'd get an idea I
"might" know what I'm talking about.
People make TOO BIG a fuss over the MOAs, and restricted areas. I've
learned to live in them.
I started flying from IYK in 1973. During the intervening 32 years we
have not had a single fatal encounter, in fact I don't even remember any
close calls between military aircraft and general aviation. That in spite of
the periodic cruise missile flights that boogey through the valley int the
vicinity of Rosamond, Mojave, and IYK at 500 ft AGL to drop their payloads
at China Lake. Only twice in that time have I had an advisory from Joshua
Approach of military aircraft in the vicinity and they were 20+ miles away,
albeit below my cruising altitude. The huge majority of military flights are
above 30,000 feet in the military complex
My route from IYK to the San Joaquin Valley is either over Tehachapi in
the 150 or Lake Isabella in the 172. If you plan on flying over on a
weekend, flex-Friday, or holiday, Joshua will clear you "at or above 5,000
feet MSL" unless there is the rare weekend exercise happening. Those occur
about twice a year.
During the week, you may have to weave through the "Trona Corridor"
after crossing R-2506 at or above 6,000 feet. On the other hand, your
chances of getting Joshua to clear you direct through R-2504 are not all
that bad. But you gotta ask!! Don't be shy.
I'm not complacent about flying through the MOAs. I know what they are
for. I used to work at China Lake. But I'm also familiar enough with the
process that I'd rather fly through an MOA any day over flying across the LA
Basin.
Gas at IYK is cheaper than Stovepipe or Furnace Creek by the way. If you
decide to drop in there, let me know. I'll meet you at the airport.



  #9  
Old April 7th 05, 06:30 PM
Jonathan Sorger
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Posts: n/a
Default

Hi John,

Thanks for the suggestion... I had looked at that route, but since I'll
be flying a 172 I wasn't sure how sustainable the 13,500 altitude would
be (although I have taken it just below 14,000).

Good point about the mountains being stationary (and I will be flying
during the week).

Jonathan

In 1112887085.381549@sj-nntpcache-5 John Harper wrote:
What are you flying? Generally (to DV or Vegas) I take what is
essentially V244, climbing up to Tuolomine Meadows on the North
side of the Yosemite park, then cross the ridge either at Tioga or
a little further south - the pass is clear on the sectional.
You need to be able to get to 13500'. At this time of the year,
assuming the weather is generally good, it should be fine - not too
bumpy. Obviously you want a day with only modest winds and no cloud
below 15000' or so.

It's a truly spectacular flight, I was thrilled the first time I
did it and the thrill doesn't get any less. As long as the weather is
good and the winds are low, it's as safe as mountain flying gets.
And the nice thing is that with some careful pilotage you can avoid
the MOAs completely.

In my experience the MOAs are generally hot on weekdays and cold on
weekends - which is what the sectional says too. I would not
personally be a huge fan of flying through a hot MOA, even though it
is technically allowed. Whilst mountain flying has its risks, at least
mountains pretty much stay put rather than whizzing about at Mach 2.

John

Jonathan Sorger wrote:

I plan on taking my first trip from the Bay Area to Death Valley (
Furnace Creek) next week. I was wondering if I could pick the brains
of those familiar with the area. It looks like Porterville - Kern
Valley - China Lake is the safest route to take. I have had a
mountain checkout and am not thrilled about staying below 1500' AGL
to keep out of the MOAs in the Sierra Nevada range. I realize that
you contact Joshua Approach for the MOA status - can anyone clue me
in to whether or not they typically allow civilian aircraft through
at other altitudes during their operational hours? Thanks,


  #10  
Old April 7th 05, 06:40 PM
Jonathan Sorger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Casey,

Thanks - I noticed the IYK corridor. Great to get local advice. I know
that as civilian aircraft we are 'allowed' but having F-16s and cruise
missiles in the area rightly makes one nervous. I'll be flying on a
weekday...

I'll let you know if we decide to drop in at IYK.

Jonathan


Hi Jonathan,

For starters, take a look at the north side of the Los Angeles
sectional. Just to the left of R-2505 and well inside the military
complex R-2508 and deeply imbedded in the MOA's is Inyokern airport,
IYK. That's my home patch. I just thought I'd start out with that
so you'd get an idea I "might" know what I'm talking about.
People make TOO BIG a fuss over the MOAs, and restricted areas. I've
learned to live in them.
I started flying from IYK in 1973. During the intervening 32 years
we have not had a single fatal encounter, in fact I don't even
remember any close calls between military aircraft and general
aviation. That in spite of the periodic cruise missile flights that
boogey through the valley int the vicinity of Rosamond, Mojave, and
IYK at 500 ft AGL to drop their payloads at China Lake. Only twice in
that time have I had an advisory from Joshua Approach of military
aircraft in the vicinity and they were 20+ miles away, albeit below
my cruising altitude. The huge majority of military flights are above
30,000 feet in the military complex My route from IYK to the San
Joaquin Valley is either over Tehachapi in the 150 or Lake Isabella
in the 172. If you plan on flying over on a weekend, flex-Friday, or
holiday, Joshua will clear you "at or above 5,000 feet MSL" unless
there is the rare weekend exercise happening. Those occur about twice
a year. During the week, you may have to weave through the "Trona
Corridor" after crossing R-2506 at or above 6,000 feet. On the other
hand, your chances of getting Joshua to clear you direct through R-
2504 are not all that bad. But you gotta ask!! Don't be shy. I'm
not complacent about flying through the MOAs. I know what they are
for. I used to work at China Lake. But I'm also familiar enough with
the process that I'd rather fly through an MOA any day over flying
across the LA Basin. Gas at IYK is cheaper than Stovepipe or
Furnace Creek by the way. If you decide to drop in there, let me know.
I'll meet you at the airport.




 




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