SF Bay Area ---> Death Valley

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Spoken by what I believe to be a flatland pilot who doesn't get the chance
to fly mountains much and is fascinated with the scenery.

I've scraped a few of you off of our hills with a bucket and a spoon in
the
last forty years of flying search and rescue, and it ain't fun, no matter
how much you think it might be.

I was taught to fly in the Laguna and Cuyamaca mountains of Southern
California and teach mountain flying as a necessity out of my home base in
the Sierra. I fly the Sierra on a daily basis; the Wasatch and the
Rockies
twice a year. I think I've got my fair share of mountain flying in the
4500
hours in my logbook. I've also had two complete engine failures due to
mechanical failure, one in the Sierra and one in the Rockies. So far the
fatalities have been a video camera and my wris****ch. Plus a very pretty
C-172.

I absolutely DETEST know-it-alls who come on here and say, "well, I don't
have any data, but I suspect..." Suspect isn't worth a bucket of warm
****.

Finally, I teach math, and sometimes I get into probability and
statistics.
For a damfool to come on here and say that since somebody flies
infrequently
over water and mountains that isn't anything to worry about is the height
of
stupidity. The engine has exactly the same chance of failing per minute
over hostile terrain as per minute directly over a 10,000 foot runway.

Do I fly over water or mountains? On a regular basis. Do I keep
something
that I can land on directly beneath me at all times? You bet. To say
that
Tioga pass is safer than downtown LA is just plain stupid. In the first
place, there are concrete flood drains all over the city. In the second
place, there are very few freeways that are filled in BOTH directions at
the
same time, and if they are, then there are alternative freeways that you
can
use. THere are racetracks. There are football fields, there are golf
courses, there are a dozen places where you will walk away from an engine
failure.

Not so Tioga or any of the other mountain passes. Sure, the pass ITSELF
has
the meadows at the top, but the route getting TO the pass is inhospitable
in
the extreme. So also the downhill trip on the leeward side of the hill.

The man has a choice. Go over Tioga Pass and hope for the best or go down
south to Tehachapi pass with an interstate freeway underneath you from
Bakersfield to Mojave. Tioga is pretty. Tehachapi is survivable. Your
call.

Oh, and Earl, tell us how many mountain flying hours you have and where
you
teach out of please?

Jim


I have zero hours flying over mountians and do not teach. I was asking a
question and instead of answering you go off on some rant. The question is
"Just what is the failure rate, excluding fuel exhaustion, of single engine
planes while in flight?" By this question I meant engine failure rate, not
any type of mechanical failure.

I am sure you probably have "scraped a few of you off of our hills", but how
many were from engine failures versus some other cause (weather, pilot
error, etc.)? If you teach math then maybe you could just answer the
question. The reason why I suspect the failure rate over mountains and
water is low is because the failure rate over anywhere else appears to be
low. Sure engines can fail and it can happen to anyone, but what is the
failure rate?





"Earl Grieda" wrote in message
ink.net...

I always wonder about these statements about how someone never flies
over
water or mountains because they have a single engine plane. Just what
is
the failure rate, excluding fuel exhaustion, of single engine planes
while
in flight? Although I do not have any data I suspect it is so low as to
be
negligible. So, if you infrequently fly over water and mountains, why
worry. Not to say that it can't happen, but you could also be hit by a
meteor while flying yet we don't worry about that.

RST,

Ah, the joys of the always friendly, non-condescending posts of a true
newsgroup expert... ;-)

I've scraped a few of you off of our hills with a bucket and a spoon in the
last forty years of flying search and rescue,

Ok, how many and how many of those due to engine failure?

I've also had two complete engine failures due to
mechanical failure, one in the Sierra and one in the Rockies. So far the
fatalities have been a video camera and my wris****ch. Plus a very pretty
C-172.

More data to support the view that the risk isn't nowhere nearly as high as you
wanted to make it in your original post.


I absolutely DETEST know-it-alls who come on here and say, "well, I don't
have any data, but I suspect..."

Which nobody did. And you didn't present statistically sound "data", either, as
I'm sure you know, what with your superior math education. But - never miss a
chance for throwing around some insults, right? That's something I DETEST! To
each his own...

For a damfool to come on here and say that since somebody flies infrequently
over water and mountains that isn't anything to worry about is the height of
stupidity.

Which, again, nobody did. "Risk management" are the key words, not fear
mongering - see two quotes below.


Not so Tioga or any of the other mountain passes.

Well, I've flown both L.A. and Tioga - and I disagree. You conveniently left
out power lines, for example.

Tioga is pretty. Tehachapi is survivable. Your
call.

To say or imply that "Tioga is not survivable" is utter BS, plain and simple.
And fear mongering to the extreme (see above).


Oh, and Earl, tell us how many mountain flying hours you have and where you
teach out of please?

Ah, the "argument by authority" trick. It sucks! Every time!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...


SNIP

Do I fly over water or mountains? On a regular basis. Do I keep
something that I can land on directly beneath me at all times? You bet.
To say that Tioga pass is safer than downtown LA is just plain stupid. In
the first place, there are concrete flood drains all over the city. In
the second place, there are very few freeways that are filled in BOTH
directions at the same time, and if they are, then there are alternative
freeways that you can use. THere are racetracks. There are football
fields, there are golf courses, there are a dozen places where you will
walk away from an engine failure.

The original post had two topics: mountains and MOAs. When I
referred to the hazards of flying in the LA Basin, that was related to the
MOAs and the opportunity to encounter another flying machine, not the
Sierra.

The man has a choice. Go over Tioga Pass and hope for the best or go down
south to Tehachapi pass with an interstate freeway underneath you from
Bakersfield to Mojave. Tioga is pretty. Tehachapi is survivable. Your
call.

I heartily agree with flying the Tehachapi route or the Kern Valley
over Lake Isabella, versus Tioga. But my reasons are different. In either
direction, over the two southern routes, the countour lines are packed
tightly together for only a short time on either side with a relatively flat
area in between. And I wouldn't count on the four-lane freeway for a
landing. Next time you cross over there, count the 55,000-pound, 18-wheelers
and gauge the space in between them. Grin

We're on the same side of the argument, Jim, just a hair apart.

Casey Wilson
Freelance Writer and Photographer