IFR in A/C with Single Nav

You wouldn't actually recommend that your student, after passing the check ride,
fly that airplane in IMC, would you?

On 7/19/2005 11:54 PM, Rugby51 wrote the following:
I am a relatively new CFII looking for some advice. I am starting an
instrument student in a 172 that is bare bones IFR. The plane has a
single nav with glideslope, a VFR GPS installation, and no ADF or DME.
I haven't flown the plane on an IFR flight yet, but it seems that the
way to make it work is to just have fast fingers, and good SA. Any
tips on how to navigate/teach in this airplane?

I've been looking over local approaches, flying them on paper. If, for
instance, a VOR approach uses a cross radial from another facility to ID
the FAF then what is the best way to proceed? My plan would be work
hard to nail the approach course as early as possible, and have the
cross-radial VOR in standby. Then I could flip the nav to the
cross-radial, spin the OBS and see where I was, then flip back to the
approach VOR/course.

Of course, knowing the distance to the cross-radial VOR could be
helpful. Using the 60nm = 1nm per degree of deflection on the CDI
could give ete to the fix.

Am I approaching this correctly? Any advice, tips, techniques would be
greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Well, actually, I would. What is the percentage increase in risk flying with a single nav, versus dual navs? From a risk management standpoint, I will talk with my student about planning flights that leave an "out" should the nav fail.

We are in Western Washington, home of the stable, moist airmass. Would I launch in this plane on a fall afternoon with broken/overcast at 3500' and layers up to the FL's? Yes!

Would I go at night, in February, with ceilings at 2000', and a negligible temp spread, with conditions being similar over all of Western Washington/Oregon? Definately not.

Originally Posted by Mitty

You wouldn't actually recommend that your student, after passing the check ride,
fly that airplane in IMC, would you?

On 7/19/2005 11:54 PM, Rugby51 wrote the following:
I am a relatively new CFII looking for some advice. I am starting an
instrument student in a 172 that is bare bones IFR. The plane has a
single nav with glideslope, a VFR GPS installation, and no ADF or DME.
I haven't flown the plane on an IFR flight yet, but it seems that the
way to make it work is to just have fast fingers, and good SA. Any
tips on how to navigate/teach in this airplane?

re -

Remember, both GPS failure AND vacuum failure together is a very rare
event. Do teach your student to do a VOR and ILS approach partial
panel and without GPS. Don't waste your time teaching him how to do a
LOC or VOR with FAF defined by cross-radial that way - it's just not
worth it,

I trained by student to do just that, with a non flip flop VAV, and he
got it on his checkride, and he passed.

Andy

Find someone with a Frasca or other trainer to teach in. Then go into the
airplane. Keep the GPS off. Teach the student on the ground and in a
trainer first. Even using a pc is better than nothing. Then go up in the
plane.


"Rugby51" wrote in message
...

I am a relatively new CFII looking for some advice. I am starting an
instrument student in a 172 that is bare bones IFR. The plane has a
single nav with glideslope, a VFR GPS installation, and no ADF or DME.
I haven't flown the plane on an IFR flight yet, but it seems that the
way to make it work is to just have fast fingers, and good SA. Any
tips on how to navigate/teach in this airplane?

I've been looking over local approaches, flying them on paper. If, for
instance, a VOR approach uses a cross radial from another facility to ID
the FAF then what is the best way to proceed? My plan would be work
hard to nail the approach course as early as possible, and have the
cross-radial VOR in standby. Then I could flip the nav to the
cross-radial, spin the OBS and see where I was, then flip back to the
approach VOR/course.

Of course, knowing the distance to the cross-radial VOR could be
helpful. Using the 60nm = 1nm per degree of deflection on the CDI
could give ete to the fix.

Am I approaching this correctly? Any advice, tips, techniques would be
greatly appreciated. Thanks!


--
Rugby51

I was thinking of it more in a workload sense than worrying about radio failure.
If it is a VFR GPS without a moving map, then it would seem to me that the
effort to maintain good situational awareness would be very large. Single
pilot, with no one backing me up, I would certainly worry about it if it were me
in that airplane.

It probably depends on the airspace, too. I fly in & around around the
Minneapolis Bravo, and Approach is very busy. In fact today I was flying safety
pilot with a friend and twice we were deliberately vectored through a final
approach course because of traffic. We also flew the published hold for the STP
ILS 14, which is a VOR radial intersection alternatively defined by DME off one
of the VORs. I would not want to have tried to keep SA track of all that with a
single VOR, no DME airplane.

I hope your nav is at least a flip-flop! :-)

On 7/21/2005 10:07 AM, Rugby51 wrote the following:
Well, actually, I would. What is the percentage increase in risk flying
with a single nav, versus dual navs? From a risk management standpoint,
I will talk with my student about planning flights that leave an "out"
should the nav fail.

We are in Western Washington, home of the stable, moist airmass. Would
I launch in this plane on a fall afternoon with broken/overcast at 3500'
and layers up to the FL's? Yes!

Would I go at night, in February, with ceilings at 2000', and a
negligible temp spread, with conditions being similar over all of
Western Washington/Oregon? Definately not.

Mitty Wrote:

You wouldn't actually recommend that your student, after passing the
check ride,
fly that airplane in IMC, would you?

On 7/19/2005 11:54 PM, Rugby51 wrote the following:-
I am a relatively new CFII looking for some advice. I am starting an
instrument student in a 172 that is bare bones IFR. The plane has a
single nav with glideslope, a VFR GPS installation, and no ADF or
DME.
I haven't flown the plane on an IFR flight yet, but it seems that the
way to make it work is to just have fast fingers, and good SA. Any
tips on how to navigate/teach in this airplane?

-

Andy,

both GPS failure AND vacuum failure together is a very rare
event.


Yes, but he said it was a VFR GPS only.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I was thinking of it more in a workload sense than worrying about radio failure.

Amazingly, the workload is not too bad if you use the right procedures.
No way would I fly a Mooney or Bonanza so equipped in hard IFR, but
for a Skyhawk-class airplane it works. The plane is so stable and so
benign that if you slow it down and drop some flaps, things happen
slowly enough to manage it.

I still sometimes fly a TriPacer IFR - and it has only one nav-com (not
even a flip-flop) and a VFR GPS. It works - and it works in the busy
airspace of Houston.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in
oups.com:


First off, you can climb immediately - it's only an early turn that is
verboten. If there is no turn, there is no issue.

I agree with Michael here. I don't time ILS approaches either. If the
GS goes out, then I would do a miss, rebrief for the LOC, and fly it
again. Losing the GS, I would start an immediate climb, while continuing
inbound on the LOC, and call up approach for vectors for another
approach.

I first learned to fly IFR with one nav, no GS, and in a helicopter.
That can get really busy, because even though you'll have another pilot
in a unit, in training you have to do it all yourself, and there isn't
much time available for doing anything except keeping the machine right-
side up. If you can fly an approach alone in a TH13, then you can fly
one in just about anything. It's work, and it's difficult, but it's
certainly possible.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin