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Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 28th 03, 04:20 AM
F.L. Whiteley
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"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of

winch

experience jumping in here?



SNIP
Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

We do 40, 20 as observer/helper, and 20 supervised, but our winch is a
simple
single-drummed affair.

Frank Whiteley



  #42  
Old October 28th 03, 04:30 AM
F.L. Whiteley
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"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of

winch

experience jumping in here?



SNIP
Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

We do 40, 20 as observer/helper, and 20 supervised, but our winch is a
simple
single-drummed affair.

Frank Whiteley

Let me amend this to say a minimum of 40. To that end, you may have driven
a winch hundreds or thousands of times and still not have seen it all, and
hopefully, never will.

Frank Whiteley


  #43  
Old October 28th 03, 10:32 AM
Bert Willing
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In Germany, the requirement is 100 supervised launches on at least 10
different days.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"F.L. Whiteley" a écrit dans le message de
...
Let me amend this to say a minimum of 40. To that end, you may have

driven
a winch hundreds or thousands of times and still not have seen it all, and
hopefully, never will.

Frank Whiteley




  #44  
Old October 28th 03, 10:36 AM
Eggert Ehmke
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Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?


I have done some 1500 winch launches and about 50 aerotows. Beside some
cable breaks, I can't remember any uncomfortable situation during a winch
launch. I can't tell this of the aerotows.

In Germany, winch drivers have to do at least 100 launches on 10 different
days under supervision of an experienced driver. The 10 days rule is to
ensure different weather/wind situations during the training. We expect
every pilot to get his winch driver licence. The driver will get a
replacement after some hours and normally can choose his favorite glider
after his shift.

As for unexperienced winch drivers: anything that can happen (cable breaks,
engine problems, other launch interruptions) can be and must be handled by
the pilot.

On our 1200 m strip, we normally get 350-600 m after release. On good
thermal days, this is pretty enough to get away. With students we can do
easily lots of patterns of 6-10 minutes.
Eggert
  #45  
Old October 28th 03, 02:48 PM
Bob Johnson
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Mr. Ehmke --

Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems
extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater
than your strip length?

Thanks for your input.

BJ

Eggert Ehmke wrote:

Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?


I have done some 1500 winch launches and about 50 aerotows. Beside some
cable breaks, I can't remember any uncomfortable situation during a winch
launch. I can't tell this of the aerotows.

In Germany, winch drivers have to do at least 100 launches on 10 different
days under supervision of an experienced driver. The 10 days rule is to
ensure different weather/wind situations during the training. We expect
every pilot to get his winch driver licence. The driver will get a
replacement after some hours and normally can choose his favorite glider
after his shift.

As for unexperienced winch drivers: anything that can happen (cable breaks,
engine problems, other launch interruptions) can be and must be handled by
the pilot.

On our 1200 m strip, we normally get 350-600 m after release. On good
thermal days, this is pretty enough to get away. With students we can do
easily lots of patterns of 6-10 minutes.
Eggert

  #46  
Old October 28th 03, 04:07 PM
Bill Gribble
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Bob Johnson writes
Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems
extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater
than your strip length?


350-600m is between 1155' and 1980' (approximately)?

Our own main strip is 1500m. In my somewhat limited experience, the
typical winch launch releases a K13 at 1600'. With an appropriate
head-wind, I've read that launches of up to 3000' (910m ?) can be
achieved from this particular strip (though possibly not in a K13!),
though that could well be just innocent boasting.

In that context, is 600m from a 1200m strip quite so extraordinary?
Especially as it was cited as the outside boundary of a range (ie. 350
to 600).

From a complete layman's point of view (well, one with 12 winch launches
so far and 1 aerotow to his name) I'd say that the winch was a good deal
more exhilarating than a tow and thus feels a damn sight more risky. But
I understand that if you fly the launch by the book then the winch is
perfectly safe.

That said, I've also read somewhere that the main contributors to
gliding fatalities in the UK are mainly mid-airs and "spin-ins" from
steeply initiated winch launches.

If that's the case, then perhaps the fact that a pilot launching on
winch only has himself to worry about, as opposed to one on tow who also
has the tug pilot's safety as a concern and responsibility, might leave
the former more predisposed to taking chances with his personal safety?

And perhaps the fact that you do need to fly a winch launch aggressively
(by comparison) if you want to make the maximum possible height out of
it, whereas with a tow, failing pilot error, mechanical failure or other
eventuality, you are going to make the release height you want
regardless. A winch has a 30 second window at best. A tow can take as
long as it needs within reason.

Of course, none of this contributes the stats and figures requested. And
all of this could be attributed to the flawed mis-interpretations of a
complete newbie who has read far too much in the last three months to
possibly retain any of it with a reasonable degree of accuracy ...

--
Bill Gribble

/----------------------------------\
| http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk |
| http://members.aol.com/annsweb |
| http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org |
\----------------------------------/
  #47  
Old October 28th 03, 05:12 PM
Stefan
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Bob Johnson wrote:

Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems
extraordinary.


It all depends on the wind. With zero wind, the rule of thumb is that
you get approximately 1/3 the cable lengh. More with headwind, much more
with strong headwind. With extraordirarily strong headwind, you can even
kite. (Yes, it has been done.)

Stefan

  #48  
Old October 28th 03, 05:17 PM
Bill Gribble
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Stefan writes
With extraordirarily strong headwind, you can even kite. (Yes, it has
been done.)


Whilst I have no trouble believing that, it does conjure up some curious
mental images ... Though perhaps that speaks more of my own mental
imbalance than that of the suggestion g

--
Bill Gribble

/----------------------------------\
| http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk |
| http://members.aol.com/annsweb |
| http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org |
\----------------------------------/
  #49  
Old October 28th 03, 07:04 PM
Eggert Ehmke
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Bob Johnson wrote:

Mr. Ehmke --

Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems
extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater
than your strip length?


That's 1200 m of cable laid out, with a V8 240 HP engine at the other end.
What I told is the normal range - with strong wind aligned to the runway we
had 750 m (2460 feet) agl with a double seated ASK21. I did not see this
launch, but it sounds reasonable. 650 m I have experienced myself.
Eggert
  #50  
Old October 28th 03, 07:26 PM
Gary Boggs
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I really appreciate all this good input, thank you all for responding. Now
for a new twist, one of our members has built a "pay out winch". A pay out
winch is a drum with a break on it. The glider hooks up about 200' behind
the tow vehicle, and as the glider climbs, the line spools out. Does
anybody have any experience with this type of launch? How much runway do
you need for this type of launch, how high can you get, ect?

Boggs

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bob Johnson wrote:

Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems
extraordinary.


It all depends on the wind. With zero wind, the rule of thumb is that
you get approximately 1/3 the cable lengh. More with headwind, much more
with strong headwind. With extraordirarily strong headwind, you can even
kite. (Yes, it has been done.)

Stefan


 




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