Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

As Dan said elsewhere the quality of the instructors is the most important thing and if I had my time again I would still be very happy to have had XC training in any model Janus. Before I bought into a syndicate that owned a Janus A, I had one XC flight with a pilot who had won a few Nationals and done several world champs. What a lesson in how to fly!

Maybe I'm swayed by my good experiences but the Janus will do the job just fine

Originally Posted by K_Miller

I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

On Monday, January 28, 2013 3:49:14 PM UTC-5, Ventus_a wrote:
...a culture... more concerned
with getting 'credentialed' than actually gaining real skill...

I'd like to think that that position is a minority sub-culture within soaring.

I've noticed a few pilots with high level skills that like to gamble with very long odds, for example, by placing critical bets about rapidly changing weather.

I expect that there are a few pilots with good credentials, but not very good skills, who like to gamble with very long odds.

So where am I on this matrix? I guess that we all take risks, some more skillfully than others, and that we all stay in the sport until our luck runs out.

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:34:52 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote

I'd like to think that that position is a minority sub-culture within soaring.



I've noticed a few pilots with high level skills that like to gamble with very long odds, for example, by placing critical bets about rapidly changing weather.



I expect that there are a few pilots with good credentials, but not very good skills, who like to gamble with very long odds.



So where am I on this matrix? I guess that we all take risks, some more skillfully than others, and that we all stay in the sport until our luck runs out.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Ventus_a. A lot depends on the club atmosphere and quality of instructors, but I see a lot of glider pilots who are perfectly happy staying at the skill level they acquired to pass their checkride, and making no attempt to progress any further. They are the "twirlybirds" that show up, fly a trainer for 1 hour on a booming day, then often leave before having to put all the club's gear away. Mention moving map software or FLARM to these guys, and all you get is a blank stare...

They don't think they are taking risks because they never stretch out - but in actuality they have stopped learning, and depending on how good their instruction was, may be the most dangerous pilots on the field!

But hey, as long as they pay their bills, it keeps the club going!

Kirk
66

Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.

We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
them extra room to further find their way by experience.

Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
no-way, I would say.

Hi Eric

I understood that you weren't implying ab-initio training couldn't be done in a Janus.

Despite how my previous post may have been taken I wouldn't expect that a club would get good value for money from a Janus if they were to focus on ab-initio training in it. Yes I've known some people who have been trained successfully on the Janus but the intention of my posts was with regard to their use as an XC trainer. I think they are eminently suitable for that with the right instructors

In a club environment a more docile and forgiving machine like the K21 is a given for ab-initio as it also allows a wider range of instructor ability to be utilised

:-) Colin

Originally Posted by Eric Munk

Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.

We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
them extra room to further find their way by experience.

Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
no-way, I would say.

Well, it was in a club where we had about 10 ab-initio students per year, and the Janus was the least performing aircraft of the fleet. X-country flying was strongly encouraged, and there was no way to buy an ASK21 which you can use more or less for training only.

Over the years, we had one single incident to report (nose wheel push up during landing, would have happened with an ASK21 as well). I didn't see any difference in flight numbers to solo in resoect to other double seaters. And yes, students did use the flaps.

Over my career, I have been flying as an ab-initio instructor in the backseat of Ka7, ASK13, ASK21, SF34, Twin and Janus. Bottom line: The aircraft doesn't matter *at all*.

Le mercredi 30 janvier 2013 14:28:23 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit*:
Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it

couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for

intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure

Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.



We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare

their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and

durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An

ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need

sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the

back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give

them extra room to further find their way by experience.



Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given

properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used

safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a

no-way, I would say.

I have about 2oo hours in Janus A. I can't speak for other versions. All I can say is: It is perfectly safe, but it does not have pleasant handling qualities.

The ailerons are light and effective, the rudder heavy and takes an eternity and the elevator is super sensitive. Sometimes, the flying tail stalls while thermaling, making the nose pitch down. This can be alleviated by quickly relaxing back pressure and when you feel (you can feel it) the tail "unstalled", you then resume the stick position as before, otherwise you'll pick up speed quickly.

These characteristics are true at any flap setting. Thermals pretty well with positive flap and lands well too.

You just can not be ham fisted on the stick, it must be precise and quick, while horse kicking the rudder pedals.

Don't know why they installed the drogue shoot. With full flaps and spoilers it's pretty good already. I did land once on flaps 0. don't. It'll float forever.

Despite all this, I had a lot of fun with it.

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:07:15 PM UTC+13, Keith wrote:
I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.

If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

My club had a Janus A for 15 years until a couple of years ago. I have 83 flights and 72 hours in it, mostly taking friends&family for rides. The only twin I have more hours in is the DG1000 (81 hours). Other twins I've flown include 50 hours in Blanik, 20 in Grob twins, under 5 each in K21, K13, K7, Puchacz.

A lot of people in our club didn't like the Janus. I don't really understand why. Sure, it was more sensitive and less harmonized than the DG1000, but nothing that was a problem for a competent pilot, and the better performance below 50 knots and above 80 made up for it.

WIth the belly hook, sensitive elevator, and solidly mounted wheel I wouldn't want to teach takeoff/tow/landing in it if another two seater was available. Of course it would be possible. Put in in +6 flaps and leave it there and it's as easy to fly in the middle of the sky as a Grob, and with about the same performance. Use the flaps as intended and it'll match or beat a Duo or DG1000.

In our club we've now settled on a couple of DG1000s to do everything from rides/ab-initio to cross country.

If your club is big enough to have a mixed fleet then a Janus (any model) is excellent for putting solo-standard pilots into for cross country training. There are few two seaters with better performance and certainly not for less money.

They're also great for checking people out before they fly a flapped single seater.