F15E/1941

From: Bob Urz
Date: 5/30/2004 6:32 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob



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Nuke the task force into oblivion. The shock wave and heat flash will knock
down or toast the 1/2 wave that has launched and is formating in the area. If
the fleet vanished it would confuse the hell out of the Japanese and Pearl
would be safe.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
|
|| -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
|
| Nuke the task force into oblivion. The shock wave and heat flash will
knock
| down or toast the 1/2 wave that has launched and is formating in the area.
If
| the fleet vanished it would confuse the hell out of the Japanese and Pearl
| would be safe.
|
| Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

--

The temptation would always be to nuke the task force - then nuke the ashes.

Personally, I'd lob a single nuke into the middle of the battle group,
bend all the carriers double and sunburn the crews. Hopefully, there's
be a destroyer or an oiler that will limp back to port with an unbelievable
'pika don' story.


Cheers


Dave Kearton

In article ,
(JDupre5762) wrote:


At the same time I am screaming as loudly as possible to the Army and
Navy
commands on Oahu that the Japanese are coming.

On what common frequency and modulation?

In message , Bob Urz
writes
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

If you're not counting nukes, then I'd go for laser-guided bombs. Don't
know what the options are for type and number of LGBs on a F-15E, but
they're probably the best option for doing maximum damage off limited
pylons against moving targets.

Air-to-air weapons are pretty much irrelevant - you'll get maybe eight
Sidewinders and 900 rounds of 20mm for two planes, so a dozen kills.
Won't hurt to shoot off the AIM-9s on egress, but the priority is
killing the carriers.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Lofted LGBs from standoff and altitude, with one aircraft designating
and the other dropping: as the weapons fly, the dropper keeps an eye for
any Japanese fighters trying to claw up to engage and lets them have a
Sidewinder or two in the face to dissuade them.

If fuel's not a problem, then hit the carriers with one LGB at a time,
from ahead or astern and targetting elevators for maximum disruption.
That should rapidly eliminate their flying capabilities and give a good
chance of causing catastrophic damage.

Resist the temptation to come in and strafe afterwards: they'll still
have a lot of barrage AAA and you can't do enough damage to justify the
risk.

Warning Pearl might be a problem by radio, but a few high-speed flypasts
and some strafing runs shooting up the water off Battleship Row should
alert Oahu that *something* is unusual and heightened alert would be
wise. If you want to go air-to-air with the attackers, waiting until
they're nearly at Pearl might be the best idea in order to disrupt and
confuse their attack even if you can't kill many of them.

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier.

Kill the carriers: with the carriers gone, so is the strike force and
its irreplaceable pilots.


Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:36:23 -0400, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob

I carry 4x cluster bombs per aircraft (just in case I miss with one or two),
and all the sidewinders and 20mm the F-15 will haul. I'm hitting the
carriers with cluster bombs, which ought to do a number on any aircraft and
people on deck. The secondaries from the Japanese munitions will finish the
job on the carriers. Once the carriers are lit up like the 4th of July, I
take out bombers and torpedo planes until I exhaust my supply of
sidewinders. Following that, I go plinking with 20 mm. I don't waste my
time shooting up Zero's unless there is nothing else to shoot at.

KB

AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

Al Minyard

In article ,
Alan Minyard writes:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:36:23 -0400, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob

I carry 4x cluster bombs per aircraft (just in case I miss with one or two),
and all the sidewinders and 20mm the F-15 will haul. I'm hitting the
carriers with cluster bombs, which ought to do a number on any aircraft and
people on deck. The secondaries from the Japanese munitions will finish the
job on the carriers. Once the carriers are lit up like the 4th of July, I
take out bombers and torpedo planes until I exhaust my supply of
sidewinders. Following that, I go plinking with 20 mm. I don't waste my
time shooting up Zero's unless there is nothing else to shoot at.

KB

AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

They do, and quite nicely. Recip exhaust gas is very hot. Teh
volume's lower, but that doesn't really matter - a Sidewinder's seeker
is looking at temperature, not volume.
Remember - the seekers these days are able to see the aerodynamic
heating on the leading edges of a subsonic airplane - that's not very
much.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:36:23 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob

I carry 4x cluster bombs per aircraft (just in case I miss with one or
two),
and all the sidewinders and 20mm the F-15 will haul. I'm hitting the
carriers with cluster bombs, which ought to do a number on any aircraft
and
people on deck. The secondaries from the Japanese munitions will finish
the
job on the carriers. Once the carriers are lit up like the 4th of July,
I
take out bombers and torpedo planes until I exhaust my supply of
sidewinders. Following that, I go plinking with 20 mm. I don't waste my
time shooting up Zero's unless there is nothing else to shoot at.

KB

AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

Al Minyard

If they can get head on shots at jets based on airframe heating, I presume
they can see hot exhaust stacks and other hot spots on recips. I don't
claim to be particularly knowledgable about IR missiles (or any missiles,
for that matter), so it would be great if someone more knowledgable could
jump in...

KB

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the Pearl
but read on.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.
Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Read above, observe and report.
And when things get hot run like hell so you can live to fight another day.

In message , Alan Minyard
writes
AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

Certainly would. Even the original seeker (uncooled lead sulphide,
really basic) would track a flashlight or a lit cigarette, and the
exhausts and propellers of 900hp recips are *hot*. By the time you're up
to AIM-9L or thereabouts, you should be able to get a workable
acquisition on a reciprocating engine unless the background clutter's
hateful (and this would be over ocean, in good weather, with the
attacker choosing altitude and aspect at leisure)

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in
:

[snip]

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by
attacking the Japanese fleet unprovoked!

Unprovoked?
Half the IJN sitting witihn striking range of Pearl Harbo(u)r
isn't a provocation in and of itself?
Air wings bonbed up with props turning and you're worried about
possibly provoking them?
Are you Spanish? Oh wait, .NL, Jeez if it had been guys like you
in charge way back when instead of Wilhelmus van Nassau you'd be
Spanish.

Admittedly the Japanese might be out there whale watching but I
kinda doubt it and I think the Army and Navy Departments would have
disagreed.

Its interesting to consider what might have happened had a US sub
undetected by the Japanese been able to give 24hrs notice and been
believed. The fleet would probably have sortied although to what
end is not certain and the US carriers might have been able to lay
their own ambush. It would be too much to hope for an early Midway
but who knows. In the best of all possible worlds the Battleships
would have snuck up to within gun range of the Jap task force and
done a successful Leyte on their ass. Oh the look on Yamamotos face
as dawn broke to a horizon lined with US BBs, CAs, CLs, DDs, etc
just as they opened fire and the lookouts spotted inbound torpedoes.

Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can
launch fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE
Japanese attack.

How? Think modern military have problems interoperating?
I very much suspect you'd have no frequencies or modulation in
common. Wasn't most military traffic by Morse anyhow?

Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as
many as possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of
B-17s and B-25s against the Japanese carriers.

Which, at that point in the war would accomplish precisely nothing.

Hang max load of 500lb LGBs on the Eagles, screw the AAMs and 20mm.
You're faster than anything they could possibly get to you and
you don't need to get near the carriers to do them dirt.
As has been pointed out, if you catch them at the right time, one
bomb might do it for each carrier and if not you have plenty
in reserve.

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