F15E/1941

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the
Pearl
but read on.

Too bad nuclear armed AIM-4's aren't in the inventory. Just shoot that into
the Japanese formation and no jap airplane makes it to Pearl. Then use one
or two B-61's against the Jap fleet. Then island hop (unless you give me a
KC-10) to the Phillipines and stop McArthur from screwing up. Maybe even
save PoW and Repulse.

How long will an eagles engine last on avgas?



Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.
Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.

Simply by being where they were they showed hostile intent. If by sheer
luck we could have had a fleet led by Halsey to intercept them no orders
from above would have been necessary.


Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Read above, observe and report.
And when things get hot run like hell so you can live to fight another
day.

"Pete" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote

Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.

At this point, all we need to do is kill the flight deck, and disable as
many unlaunched planes as we can.
AGM-65 is probably too small to be effective.
F-15E can carry 8x500 lb (GBU-12 or MK-82). Use those. 2 ea holes in the
flight deck would take it out of action.


Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs. Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation. At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts. At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship. If the magazines were the aimpoint (with Google handy so that the WSO
could look it up for each ship) then the chances of sinking with a single
bomb goes up. Otherwise, a hit aft could put all four screws and possibly
rudders out of service. The ships killed at Midway were caught with all
manner of munitions and avgas available to help things along because of the
conflict between finishing off the Midway garrison and killing the US
carriers. It's unlikely that the Pearl Harbor strike would be that sloppy.

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the
Pearl
but read on.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.

Unnecessary, the Japanese were launching simultaneous attacks
across the PTO, the Phillipines and Wake were both hit
around the same time as Pearl Harbor

In any event launching a strike force that close to Hawaii
wasnt exactly a peaceful act.

Keith

On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:15:50 -0400, "Paul F Austin"
wrote:

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship. If the magazines were the aimpoint (with Google handy so that the WSO
could look it up for each ship) then the chances of sinking with a single
bomb goes up. Otherwise, a hit aft could put all four screws and possibly
rudders out of service. The ships killed at Midway were caught with all
manner of munitions and avgas available to help things along because of the
conflict between finishing off the Midway garrison and killing the US
carriers. It's unlikely that the Pearl Harbor strike would be that sloppy.

I'd put the initial LGB hit aft, so that it takes out the landing area
- almost as good as killing the CVs would be killing most of the Kido
Butai. After all the Japanese were distinctly average after their
seasoned pilots were lost.

Peter Kemp

Leadfoot wrote:

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.


Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the

Pearl

but read on.


Too bad nuclear armed AIM-4's aren't in the inventory. Just shoot that into
the Japanese formation and no jap airplane makes it to Pearl. Then use one
or two B-61's against the Jap fleet. Then island hop (unless you give me a
KC-10) to the Phillipines and stop McArthur from screwing up. Maybe even
save PoW and Repulse.

How long will an eagles engine last on avgas?



Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)


Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.
Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.


Simply by being where they were they showed hostile intent. If by sheer
luck we could have had a fleet led by Halsey to intercept them no orders
from above would have been necessary.

You would have to stick with 1941 weapons, tactics, and knowledge base.
There were hard lessons learned early in the pacific on how to
deal with a zero.

Now, if you emptied the harbor of capital ships for a strike force the
Japanese spies would have relayed the information back and the jap fleet
may have turned back. Or set up for attack.

The carriers that were not in in harbor and subs would have made a sneak
strike force. But considering the skills of the carrier pilots at that
stage of the game, we might have got a jap carrier or two on surprise,
but maybe lost all of the US carrier force we had. And i doubt that
sending a bunch or B17's would have been effective except to draw flack
fire. Losing those carriers at that stage of the war may have been worse
than the pearl attack. It's not like the decks were full of
F4U's and F4F's at that time.

Even if you would have emptied the harbor and used every available asset
on short notice and went head to head with the whole Japanese fleet,
what do you think the result would be? My guess is a lot of those
antiques in the harbor were not ready to sail on a moments notice
into battle. So 6 carriers, 2 battle ships, 2 heavy cruisers, 9
destroyers, and up to 30 jap subs were in the area if this page is correct:

http://www.ww2pacific.com/pearljp.html

The end result may have been about the same only with US carrier loses.
It would have been the biggest naval battle of the war possibly if
if happened. With that many subs in the area and possible Japanese
air recon, i doubt that total surprise could have been achieved.
It would have made a good Ben Aflack Movie though.

Bob






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On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jeroen Wenting wrote:

Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.

There weren't any B-25s on Oahu[1] and the only B-17s were the
one squadron which was ferrying in from California (without
guns!) and which was caught the landing pattern just as
the Japanese attack was reaching it's zenith.

B-17s, in any case, displayed a remarkable inability to
hit manuevering warships at sea. Even assuming the squadron
from California could have landed at Hickham intact and undamaged,
and even assuming that a B-17 counterstrike could have been
armed and launched, there's little reason to believe that
they would have hit any thing at all except, possibly, the
pacific ocean.

[1] There was a squadron of obsolescent B-18s at Hickham.
There's no reason to suppose the B-18s would have
been any more effective or accurate than the B-17s later
proved to be.

Cheers and all,

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Paul J. Adam wrote:

-snips-

Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you


I would think two F-15s sitting on the tarmack at HIckham would lend
a certain credibility.

Cheers and all,

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jeroen Wenting wrote:

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the Pearl
but read on.

What would be the effect of the sonic boom generated by two
F-15s passing at Mach 1.4 at a distance of, say, 200 meters
on a flight of B5Ns?

Is air-to-air ordinance necessary at all?

Cheers and all,

Bill Shatzer wrote:



On Mon, 31 May 2004, Paul J. Adam wrote:

-snips-


Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you



I would think two F-15s sitting on the tarmack at HIckham would lend
a certain credibility.

Cheers and all,

I think two F-15's at hickham in 1941 would have been the equivalent of
seeing aliens at roswell.......

Bob



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"Paul F Austin" wrote

Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs.
Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation.

A few hours later, you have gone to Pearl, and notified HQ of the deal.

At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since
the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs
with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts.

Remember, 1/2 the attack force is already on the way. You need to slow them
down as much as possible.

At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship.

Which is why I thought 16 MK-82 vs 8 MK-84. Smaller warhead, yes, but more
hits.

The real question is, can 2 Strike Eagles sink all 6 carriers? Maybe, maybe
not. There are only two of you, with limited ordnance. Slow them down as
much as possible until you can shake things up at Pearl.

Pete