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Mild Aerobatics



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 11th 05, 04:17 PM
Jay Honeck
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Default Mild Aerobatics

During primary training, many moons ago, I was growing frustrated with the
sedate nature of our flying, so I asked my flight instructor (Bob -- a guy
with 20K hours in every known flying machine) when we were going to get to
the "fun stuff"? He didn't know what I was talking about, so I told him I
wanted to see what these things could actually *do*...

At which point he smiled that crooked smile of his, and proceeded to do a
wing-over with a recovery out the bottom, going the opposite direction! I
was whooping and hollering for more, but he just went back to our lesson for
the day....

Nowadays, Mary and I are very cautious in our Pathfinder, rarely exceeding
45 degree banks, and never pulling more than mild G turns. Mary hates steep
banks (except in a Super Decathlon -- then all bets are off!), and the most
rambunctious thing we ever do are "Up-Downs" (as the kids call them), which
is a firm pull up with a steady push-over at the top that induces negative
Gs in the back seat.

Just curious -- what do you guys do with your spam cans? I've seen video
from inside a Cessna that shows a guy doing some pretty radical maneuvers,
but in real life what's the most you push your aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


  #2  
Old August 11th 05, 04:21 PM
Mike Rapoport
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Default

My airplanes say that "no aerobatic manuevers, including spins, are
approved" so I don't do any aerobatic maneuvers or spins.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news_JKe.239722$x96.59507@attbi_s72...
During primary training, many moons ago, I was growing frustrated with the
sedate nature of our flying, so I asked my flight instructor (Bob -- a guy
with 20K hours in every known flying machine) when we were going to get to
the "fun stuff"? He didn't know what I was talking about, so I told him I
wanted to see what these things could actually *do*...

At which point he smiled that crooked smile of his, and proceeded to do a
wing-over with a recovery out the bottom, going the opposite direction!
I was whooping and hollering for more, but he just went back to our lesson
for the day....

Nowadays, Mary and I are very cautious in our Pathfinder, rarely exceeding
45 degree banks, and never pulling more than mild G turns. Mary hates
steep banks (except in a Super Decathlon -- then all bets are off!), and
the most rambunctious thing we ever do are "Up-Downs" (as the kids call
them), which is a firm pull up with a steady push-over at the top that
induces negative Gs in the back seat.

Just curious -- what do you guys do with your spam cans? I've seen video
from inside a Cessna that shows a guy doing some pretty radical maneuvers,
but in real life what's the most you push your aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



  #3  
Old August 14th 05, 02:58 AM
Big John
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Posts: n/a
Default

Mike

Did you mean to say intentionally?

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````

On 11 Aug 2005 15:21:35 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

My airplanes say that "no aerobatic manuevers, including spins, are
approved" so I don't do any aerobatic maneuvers or spins.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news_JKe.239722$x96.59507@attbi_s72...
During primary training, many moons ago, I was growing frustrated with the
sedate nature of our flying, so I asked my flight instructor (Bob -- a guy
with 20K hours in every known flying machine) when we were going to get to
the "fun stuff"? He didn't know what I was talking about, so I told him I
wanted to see what these things could actually *do*...

At which point he smiled that crooked smile of his, and proceeded to do a
wing-over with a recovery out the bottom, going the opposite direction!
I was whooping and hollering for more, but he just went back to our lesson
for the day....

Nowadays, Mary and I are very cautious in our Pathfinder, rarely exceeding
45 degree banks, and never pulling more than mild G turns. Mary hates
steep banks (except in a Super Decathlon -- then all bets are off!), and
the most rambunctious thing we ever do are "Up-Downs" (as the kids call
them), which is a firm pull up with a steady push-over at the top that
induces negative Gs in the back seat.

Just curious -- what do you guys do with your spam cans? I've seen video
from inside a Cessna that shows a guy doing some pretty radical maneuvers,
but in real life what's the most you push your aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



  #4  
Old August 11th 05, 04:48 PM
three-eight-hotel
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Default

Steep turns here and there, and definitely the "tummy hills", which is
what "my" kids call them... ;-)

I'd like to break away and get the aerobatic endorsement at some point.
If for nothing else, to really know how to recover from some "truly"
unusual attitudes!

Best Regards,
Todd

  #5  
Old August 11th 05, 04:49 PM
Dudley Henriques
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Default

Hi Jay;

I realize that you are offering this question in the context of a "normal"
flight situation for the average safe pilot flying an average GA light
airplane safely, and considering that, I would say the following.
There are pilots out here who will "push" their normal/utility category GA
airplanes and those who won't. The smart ones don't "push" their airplanes
at all. The reason for this is that there are two factors involved. You have
a POH that offers you figures to follow that define your flight envelope,
then you have the reality involved with an aging airplane.
Considering both factors, it's simply smart flying to keep the "excursions"
from normal flight to an absolute minimum. This is not to say that the
airplane will fall apart on you if you do a little "not straight and level"
flying with it, but it does say that doing this in aging airplanes can
increase that aging process somewhat.
My advice as an aerobatic instructor to pilots flying light GA airplanes in
the normal category is simply to use their heads and don't stray too far
into "working" the airplane.
I always use a favorite analogy of mine when answering on this issue when
asked.
G........any g...on an airplane is cumulative. It can add up on you. If
someone gently poked their finger into your arm it wouldn't hurt very much
the first time they did it; but if they poked that finger into your arm at
exactly the same spot a hundred times in a row, that last time could hurt a
bunch :-)))
Bottom line for GA pilots wanting to "play" a bit..........fly the
book....and as the airplane ages.........ease off the airplane even a bit
more. Go rent the Decathlon and have some fun!!!!
Dudley



"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news_JKe.239722$x96.59507@attbi_s72...
During primary training, many moons ago, I was growing frustrated with the
sedate nature of our flying, so I asked my flight instructor (Bob -- a guy
with 20K hours in every known flying machine) when we were going to get to
the "fun stuff"? He didn't know what I was talking about, so I told him I
wanted to see what these things could actually *do*...

At which point he smiled that crooked smile of his, and proceeded to do a
wing-over with a recovery out the bottom, going the opposite direction!
I was whooping and hollering for more, but he just went back to our lesson
for the day....

Nowadays, Mary and I are very cautious in our Pathfinder, rarely exceeding
45 degree banks, and never pulling more than mild G turns. Mary hates
steep banks (except in a Super Decathlon -- then all bets are off!), and
the most rambunctious thing we ever do are "Up-Downs" (as the kids call
them), which is a firm pull up with a steady push-over at the top that
induces negative Gs in the back seat.

Just curious -- what do you guys do with your spam cans? I've seen video
from inside a Cessna that shows a guy doing some pretty radical maneuvers,
but in real life what's the most you push your aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



  #6  
Old August 11th 05, 05:49 PM
Jay Honeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Considering both factors, it's simply smart flying to keep the
"excursions" from normal flight to an absolute minimum. This is not to say
that the airplane will fall apart on you if you do a little "not straight
and level" flying with it, but it does say that doing this in aging
airplanes can increase that aging process somewhat.


Good point. This is something that concerns me, and I suspect I'm not
alone. Here's one recent experience that made me wonder about our aging
airframe.

While departing Iowa City last month, another pilot reported his position as
being 3 miles Southeast of the field, maneuvering. Since we were departing
to the Northeast, we determined that he would not be a factor.

Not! As we were climbing out, our direction-challenged fellow pilot became
visible in the haze, and I saw that he was on an intercept course -- with us
as the target.

For the first time in our flying lives (10 years, 1500+ hours), Mary and I
experienced an in-flight disagreement over what to do. She, in the left
seat, saw no reason for evasive maneuvers, determining that the plane would
pass over us with room to spare. I, in the right seat, saw the plane
growing larger in my starboard-side window by the second.

After a few more seconds of debate, I ended the discussion by pushing my
yoke firmly forward, inducing negative G and allowing us to pass harmlessly
beneath the traffic. We cleared the plane with room to spare.

Would we have hit him without my action? Probably not. Nevertheless, we
decided (after much debate) that I had acted correctly, given the
circumstances, since it fit into our pre-arranged agreement that the right
seater doesn't ever touch the controls unless they feel that their inaction
would put the plane at risk.

However, I did (and still) wonder about putting that much negative-G on our
34 year old airframe. Without a G meter it's impossible to know how much G
was induced, but I'd say it was 50% more than I've ever done before. (The
only negative G maneuver I ever do is the push-over at the top of a steep
pull-up, known by my kids as an "Up-Down".) Was 50% more too much?

We were climbing out, so our airspeed was relatively low -- probably around
80 knots. The entire maneuver lasted less than 5 seconds, and nothing
floated in the cockpit -- but in an old airplane, how much is too much?

As another reference point (and a crude way of measuring the negative Gs), I
routinely read about guys doing the "up-down" maneuver to the point where
their engine sputters due to fuel starvation. I've *never* done the
maneuver to that degree, even in this situation (although that may be due to
the short duration of the maneuver) -- so I'm assuming that I didn't push
the airframe beyond structural limits. Since that flight I've carefully
inspected the empennage, and there is obviously no visible stress or strain,
or I wouldn't be flying it -- but how can you really know without extensive
metallurgic testing?

If you've ever looked at the stabilator attachment on a Cherokee you will
marvel at the simplicity and apparent fragility of the design, so inducing
excessive negative-G is something we never, ever do. However, even though
there is (to my knowledge) no record of a stabilator departing the airframe
of a Cherokee, you've got to wonder how many days (weeks? months?) a sudden
push-over takes off the life of an airframe?

Thanks for the post, Dudley. As always, you have introduced a
thought-provoking angle to the discussion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


  #7  
Old August 11th 05, 08:19 PM
Maule Driver
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Default

Try this in anticipation of a future conflict. Unless it is a direct
head on conflict, i.e. directly in front and not moving on the
windscreen, try turning into it.

This is much harder to describe than to experience. And it's not
natural unless you practice a bit. But if an a/c is *converging* on you
and you can put your nose on it before the anticipated collision, you'll
miss it, almost no matter what the other a/c does.

If you try to turn away from a converging a/c the opposite occurs - a
collision becomes more likely.

Try it with some hand held models. Try it with some real traffic at a
good distance. You'll get the idea.

Then when that a/c appears out of no where, you will tend to do a
positive G turn rather than a push over or pull up.

If it's converging, turn into it. If it's diverging - turn away. Keep
it positive.

comments?

Jay Honeck wrote:
... As we were climbing out, our direction-challenged fellow pilot became
visible in the haze, and I saw that he was on an intercept course -- with us
as the target.

After a few more seconds of debate, I ended the discussion by

pushing my
yoke firmly forward, inducing negative G and allowing us to pass harmlessly
beneath the traffic. We cleared the plane with room to spare.

However, I did (and still) wonder about putting that much negative-G on our
34 year old airframe. Without a G meter it's impossible to know how much G
was induced, but I'd say it was 50% more than I've ever done before. (The
only negative G maneuver I ever do is the push-over at the top of a steep
pull-up, known by my kids as an "Up-Down".) Was 50% more too much?

  #8  
Old August 11th 05, 10:26 PM
Bob Noel
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article 7kLKe.239817$x96.9166@attbi_s72,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

[snip]
However, I did (and still) wonder about putting that much negative-G on our
34 year old airframe. Without a G meter it's impossible to know how much G
was induced, but I'd say it was 50% more than I've ever done before.


I've been told that what people usually think of as negative Gs are actually
just a reduction in positive g loading. As you said, without the g meter,
you don't know. But if you weren't "hanging" from the seat belts, I would
think you didn't see negative g's at all, just something noticably less than
the usual 1.0 positive g.

Sounds like you have an excuse er reason to go and get some real aerobatic
training to see what -1 g really feels like. :-)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

  #9  
Old August 12th 05, 01:08 AM
Rod
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Posts: n/a
Default

We were climbing out, so our airspeed was relatively low -- probably
around
80 knots. The entire maneuver lasted less than 5 seconds, and nothing
floated in the cockpit -- but in an old airplane, how much is too much?

If nothing floated you didn't even reach zero g, let alone negative g's.
You had a long way to go before risking overstressing anything.

Rod


  #10  
Old August 12th 05, 01:15 AM
Kyle Boatright
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Default


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:7kLKe.239817$x96.9166@attbi_s72...

snip

After a few more seconds of debate, I ended the discussion by pushing my
yoke firmly forward, inducing negative G and allowing us to pass
harmlessly beneath the traffic. We cleared the plane with room to spare.

snip
However, I did (and still) wonder about putting that much negative-G on
our 34 year old airframe. Without a G meter it's impossible to know how
much G was induced, but I'd say it was 50% more than I've ever done
before. (The only negative G maneuver I ever do is the push-over at the
top of a steep pull-up, known by my kids as an "Up-Down".) Was 50% more
too much?

We were climbing out, so our airspeed was relatively low -- probably
around 80 knots. The entire maneuver lasted less than 5 seconds, and
nothing floated in the cockpit -- but in an old airplane, how much is too
much?

As another reference point (and a crude way of measuring the negative Gs),
I routinely read about guys doing the "up-down" maneuver to the point
where their engine sputters due to fuel starvation. I've *never* done the
maneuver to that degree, even in this situation (although that may be due
to the short duration of the maneuver) -- so I'm assuming that I didn't
push the airframe beyond structural limits. Since that flight I've
carefully inspected the empennage, and there is obviously no visible
stress or strain, or I wouldn't be flying it -- but how can you really
know without extensive metallurgic testing?

snip
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Is the engine on the pathfinder carburated? If so, the engine will stumble
anywhere near zero g. In addition, since you didn't see anything "flying"
inside the cockpit, my guess is that you merely approached zero g, which
isn't a problem at all.

KB


 




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