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New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 9th 19, 03:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 1:57:45 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!


I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?


You of all people should know that. "reality distortion field".


Jonathan, that's where the Everettian "Many Worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics makes it's powerful contribution. There will most definitely be worlds where all military aircraft transmit ADS-B all the time.
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  #22  
Old October 9th 19, 05:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B






  #23  
Old October 9th 19, 05:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says


So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B


I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.
  #24  
Old October 9th 19, 07:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
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Posts: 298
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 10:49:10 AM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says


So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B


I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.


For a pre-flight start I check.....https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app..... then call and check as to where we fly has moas and restricted airspace.

Here's a good read.....https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...ircraft-around

But here's a brief copy.....

Military aircraft do have transponders that can reply to civil ATC radar and TCAS interrogations. Normally military aircraft operating in civil airspace are visible to civilian ATC and also will trigger TCAS advisories and alerts if they are getting close to airliners.

During wartime operations, and sometimes during combat practice in dedicated airspace, the transponder is operated in a different mode and will not be replying to civil radar interrogations.

Typically when operating in civil airspace, military aircraft will fly under the civil regulations for that airspace. Training flights are usually conducted in dedicated airspace under military traffic control.

In some cases, the military ATC assumes responsibility over military aircraft in otherwise civil ATC controlled airspace. In such a case the military ATC will be responsible for the separation between the military aircraft themselves and between military and civilian aircraft.

In other cases, military aircraft may be allowed to maintain their separation from each other on their own, without civil ATC interfering in their operations. This allows for operations where military aircraft flying close to each other like formation flying and aerial refueling outside the dedicated military airspace. In the USA these operations are called MARSA (Military Assumes Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft). Civil ATC is responsible for keeping Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) aircraft separated from MARSA operations. Visual Flight Rules (VFR) pilots have to maintain separation visually from MARSA flights and vice-versa. If VFR pilots are in contact with ATC they will be advised of ongoing military operations.

Thier's more so that's why for the link.

Best. Tom #711.
  #25  
Old October 9th 19, 08:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,305
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson


I suspect that information on only Southwest 737 Max having ADS-B Out may be out of date. Southwest announced a program a couple of years ago to equip (part of?) their 737-NG fleet with ADS-B Out. They made points how they were struggling with previous non-availability of suitable approved/integrated components, .. and I also suspect cost. I have no idea how far that program has moved. I do see some Southwest 737 flying around on Flightaware right now with the source showing as to "Flightaware ADS-B" (not say a FAA facility name, or not "Flightaware MLAT"--which would usually indicate a transponder only target). I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B receiver in the Bay Area.

Ah the irony that the ADS-B Out effort, the foundation of the FAA Nextgen program, largely designed to benefit the airlines, has airlines struggling to try to equip ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Are you seeing other 1090ES Out equipped traffic including airliners reliably? Should be able to see them at ~40+ NM on a PowerFLARM if not it would be good to check out what is going on.

---

As for what equipment drones are carrying, I think it's important not to guess. Do we have and idea if drones will be operating much in this MOA -- they were not mentioned at all in what seemed a detailed list of other aircraft. But OTOH I would be disappointed from a training viewpoint if the marines say don't sometimes utilize the 16' wingspan Blackjack drones in training there. Being able to operate those in mountainous regions seems pretty important.

Again I'd hope that it organizations are commenting on this MOA, that they try to find out what surveillance and collision avoidance technology and practices the military intend to use. USN bases like Fallon don't seem to have the same high-external visibility MACA (mid-air collision avoidance) programs that USAF bases have. The USAF MACA contacts I've spoken with have all been pretty responsive, may be good to find the equivalent at Fallon if it exists.


On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:49:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:17:54 AM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says


So, if I read this article correctly, 2/3 of fighters aren't scheduled to get ADS-B Out until after 2025. Therefore, I should not assume I'm going to see on my traffic display much of the type of traffic you'd expect to have in a MOA for quite some time. Even thereafter many military aircraft may be flying with ADS-B turned off under exemption since (one might speculate) the typical combat avionics settings wouldn't broadcast GPS locations for the bad guys to track.

Any word on what military drones flying in MOAs will be equipped with?

Andy Blackburn
9B


I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display. Whether because they don't have the equipment, or it was turned off I don't know. On the other hand, I never see a Southwest 737 either - according to news stories only their 14 737 MAXs are ADS-B equipped, and those are on the ground. The difference is Southwest is controlled traffic and the stuff zipping around an MOA isn't.

We've often said that we (sailplanes) are only one mid-air away from required transponders. We are similarly one mid-air away from these MOAs becoming restricted airspace.


  #26  
Old October 9th 19, 10:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 109
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display.

Mostly agree, including this summer right over Swee****er with 2 F-18s southbound. Have never seen them there before but they did not register as either xpndr or ADSB. The only time I ever saw military fighter register with xpndr was an F-15 with amazingly high closure rate over Lake Tahoe. Likely out of Klamath. It was weird to see the distance in nautical miles decrease at such a rate. There was also a drone near Amadee once cruising at 18k. It seemed to have a xpndr but was much slower. This year various SW airline 737s registered on my ADSB so they seem to be getting equipped.
Darren
  #27  
Old October 10th 19, 12:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 654
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says


You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!


I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?


Any aircraft, military or not, WILL have to have ADS-B out installed to fly in rule airspace on Jan 1, and I presume this covers most military aircraft. And the equipment must be operating UNLESS they fall into a very narrow mission exception.

I am curious as to how you know that "the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?" Are you referring to just military aircraft or all aircraft?
  #28  
Old October 10th 19, 04:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

I suggest contacting Joshua ATC Control at Edwards AFB. They have been and still are a valuable resource for high altitude wave flights in the Sierra Nevada. And Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake is just down the "block" at Ridgecrest, CA. (Near Inyokern) They obviously have deconfliction procedures in use.
  #29  
Old October 10th 19, 04:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

Does THIS
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2019-07-18/pdf/2019-15248.pdf
shed any light?

On 10/9/2019 5:55 PM, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.

That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says
You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

Any aircraft, military or not, WILL have to have ADS-B out installed to fly in rule airspace on Jan 1, and I presume this covers most military aircraft. And the equipment must be operating UNLESS they fall into a very narrow mission exception.

I am curious as to how you know that "the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?" Are you referring to just military aircraft or all aircraft?


--
Dan, 5J

  #30  
Old October 10th 19, 05:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,180
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

Darryl Ramm wrote on 10/9/2019 12:26 PM:
I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B receiver in the Bay Area.


My Phoenix has a Dynon Skyview EFIS with ADS-B in/out. Is there anyway to tell the
target is a military aircraft? Same question for the Powerflarm in my ASH 26 E -
can I determine a target is a military aircraft (I have the simple rectangular
display that just shows little triangles)?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
 




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