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Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 26th 17, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

I just listened to this news on a major news network and pseudo confirmed it he http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1374687

The newsperson actually said, "Why didn't this glider have a transponder, why wasn't this glider talking to someone, how is this possible…" live on the air.

I continue to believe that the sailplane community needs to fully adopt ADSB and transponders whenever outside of 3 miles of the airport (for basic training). Getting an exemption was a big mistake. Sailplane flying cross country, near major airspace, or at high altitudes should absolutely have ADSB and/or 250 watt transponders.

The awful scenario we are all worried about IS going to happen eventually. Its simply a matter of: A) was the gliding community pro safety or B) was the gliding community defiant and trying to wiggle out of safety and make special exceptions for itself.

When IT happens, the result will be unfortunate if we are still on the B path, as we are now…
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  #2  
Old September 26th 17, 05:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 7:30:16 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
I just listened to this news on a major news network and pseudo confirmed it he http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1374687

The newsperson actually said, "Why didn't this glider have a transponder, why wasn't this glider talking to someone, how is this possible…" live on the air.

I continue to believe that the sailplane community needs to fully adopt ADSB and transponders whenever outside of 3 miles of the airport (for basic training). Getting an exemption was a big mistake. Sailplane flying cross country, near major airspace, or at high altitudes should absolutely have ADSB and/or 250 watt transponders.

The awful scenario we are all worried about IS going to happen eventually.. Its simply a matter of: A) was the gliding community pro safety or B) was the gliding community defiant and trying to wiggle out of safety and make special exceptions for itself.

When IT happens, the result will be unfortunate if we are still on the B path, as we are now…


Those of us in other countries marvel that gliders in the USA don't have transponders. And that you still fly 2-33s and think basic trainer Grobs are high performance, of course.

I'd have thought that within 3 or 5 or whatever miles of the airport (or more at higher altitudes) would be *precisely* where you should have the transponder turned on.

I guess another surprising thing is that they allow IFR flights into class G airspace. That's the place you should have a right to fly without a transponder and the big guys should be kept away.
  #3  
Old September 26th 17, 06:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

We should just ban gliding. Between the horror of Elmira Death Hooks and causing spilled drinks on flying cattle cars gliding is just too dangerous for the modern world.
  #4  
Old September 26th 17, 06:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Pete[_9_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Food for thought/outrage/discussion:

We all use and benefit from airlines without a doubt. However, they are in the business of making money to fly. They are flying big jets with poor visibility at high speeds with autopilot on. It's usually the jet hitting the object, not the otherway around. I feel it's their responsibility to pay for and develop technology to avoid gliders, ultralites, drones and birds WHEN OUTSIDE THE MODE C VEIL or BELOW 18,000 FT.

The FAA will continue to put the vicegrip down on recreational flying until it can't be done without a glass cockpit and a $150,000 machine if we are the scape goat for any near misses.

Reality is the airlines are creating the issue and making the $$ while doing it, they need to figure out how to avoid everyone else more effectively.

Instead, the professionals are relegating the task to mere mortal "private" pilots running a weekend club in the sticks to make sure the airline's operations are safer.

What do you trust more? The professionally maintained 757 and crew or the shared club transponder with the guy that sort of knows how to use it?
Until the 757 has the technology for object avoidance, there is nothing safe enough because the weak leaks in the the current model's safety chain are too weak.

For example, if I had a huge bus that I liked to drive 500 mph on the highway and I made money from this bus and then called you to say that you needed to spend $2,500 of your money to prevent my huge bus from hitting your car on the highway because I can't see you all that well, I think you would say "slow down and/or pay for the accident avoidance technology yourself.
  #5  
Old September 26th 17, 07:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Did you miss this from yesterday?
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!...ng/drv1sFbYkPs

Or, are you just on a rant?
  #6  
Old September 26th 17, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 8:49:18 PM UTC+3, Pete wrote:
Food for thought/outrage/discussion:

We all use and benefit from airlines without a doubt. However, they are in the business of making money to fly. They are flying big jets with poor visibility at high speeds with autopilot on. It's usually the jet hitting the object, not the otherway around. I feel it's their responsibility to pay for and develop technology to avoid gliders, ultralites, drones and birds WHEN OUTSIDE THE MODE C VEIL or BELOW 18,000 FT.

The FAA will continue to put the vicegrip down on recreational flying until it can't be done without a glass cockpit and a $150,000 machine if we are the scape goat for any near misses.

Reality is the airlines are creating the issue and making the $$ while doing it, they need to figure out how to avoid everyone else more effectively..

Instead, the professionals are relegating the task to mere mortal "private" pilots running a weekend club in the sticks to make sure the airline's operations are safer.

What do you trust more? The professionally maintained 757 and crew or the shared club transponder with the guy that sort of knows how to use it?
Until the 757 has the technology for object avoidance, there is nothing safe enough because the weak leaks in the the current model's safety chain are too weak.

For example, if I had a huge bus that I liked to drive 500 mph on the highway and I made money from this bus and then called you to say that you needed to spend $2,500 of your money to prevent my huge bus from hitting your car on the highway because I can't see you all that well, I think you would say "slow down and/or pay for the accident avoidance technology yourself.


I'm not so sure. A shocking number of those airline pilots seem to have forgotten the most basic principles of flying.

Just one example:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a357/2156137/
  #7  
Old September 26th 17, 07:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 687
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:49:18 AM UTC-7, Pete wrote:
Food for thought/outrage/discussion:

We all use and benefit from airlines without a doubt. However, they are in the business of making money to fly. They are flying big jets with poor visibility at high speeds with autopilot on. It's usually the jet hitting the object, not the otherway around. I feel it's their responsibility to pay for and develop technology to avoid gliders, ultralites, drones and birds WHEN OUTSIDE THE MODE C VEIL or BELOW 18,000 FT.

The FAA will continue to put the vicegrip down on recreational flying until it can't be done without a glass cockpit and a $150,000 machine if we are the scape goat for any near misses.

Reality is the airlines are creating the issue and making the $$ while doing it, they need to figure out how to avoid everyone else more effectively..

Instead, the professionals are relegating the task to mere mortal "private" pilots running a weekend club in the sticks to make sure the airline's operations are safer.

What do you trust more? The professionally maintained 757 and crew or the shared club transponder with the guy that sort of knows how to use it?
Until the 757 has the technology for object avoidance, there is nothing safe enough because the weak leaks in the the current model's safety chain are too weak.

For example, if I had a huge bus that I liked to drive 500 mph on the highway and I made money from this bus and then called you to say that you needed to spend $2,500 of your money to prevent my huge bus from hitting your car on the highway because I can't see you all that well, I think you would say "slow down and/or pay for the accident avoidance technology yourself.


Yeah but a glider is pretty hard to miss when you can't see it, and at 250 knots or so you can't see it. I'm not sure why everyone is jumping right to ADSB, in this and most situations an old Mode C would have mad the encounter a non-issue. That said if the FAA allowed 199 type ADSB in gliders, I'd probably have one installed for next season. Requiring 250W and 145 gps sources fits the definition of perfection being the enemy of good enough.
  #8  
Old September 26th 17, 07:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:36:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
We should just ban gliding. Between the horror of Elmira Death Hooks and causing spilled drinks on flying cattle cars gliding is just too dangerous for the modern world.


I hope the rest of the gliding community in the USA has a more responsible and serious attitude to safety than your spilt drinks comment implies you do.

I have expected glider pilots were more responsible, but if attitudes about safety issues that affect airliners really are this flippant then the FAA needs remove glider transponder and ADS-B Out exemptions ASAP. To hell with all the operators that will harm that don't fly near busy airspace, lets regulate it because of irresponsible pilots and attitudes like you show.

We don't know exactly what happened here yet, don't know for sure if the glider had a working transponder or not, or how close the aircraft came, but this incident should be a reminder to the very real risk that gliders can pose to an airliner, and should remind us that transponders provide an effective safety net.

I notice the glider port where it looks you fly from is located between two VORs, maybe not airline traffic but I would expect lots of IFR traffic transiting there. I hope that operation/club is paying more attention to mid-air collision risk safety than it seems you do from these comments.


  #9  
Old September 26th 17, 07:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 188
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

What about the hot air balloons, ultralights, antique airplanes, hanggliders, skydivers, drones, birds, and mountains?
It is our airspace too and we were there first. Airlines and motorplanes need to do a better job of avoiding all of the stuff in the sky. And if you guys start advocating for limiting my ability to fly without a transponder than I am going to start advocating to limit your flying regardless of how powerful a ball roasting beeper you put in your gliders.
  #10  
Old September 26th 17, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 1,951
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
What about the hot air balloons, ultralights, antique airplanes, hanggliders, skydivers, drones, birds, and mountains?
It is our airspace too and we were there first. Airlines and motorplanes need to do a better job of avoiding all of the stuff in the sky. And if you guys start advocating for limiting my ability to fly without a transponder than I am going to start advocating to limit your flying regardless of how powerful a ball roasting beeper you put in your gliders.


With that childish attitude you are a complete liability to the entire soaring community, not just from a safety viewpoint, but from the damage you will do the the impression of our sport. I sure hope the rest of the pilots who fly out of Post Mills Soaring Club have a much more responsible attitude about safety than you do. If not well, oh well thanks to your posts here, everybody, including the FAA, now knows what they might possibly be facing there. Lets hope it is nothing as bad as your attitude implies it might be.
 




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