A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

US Competition Pilot Poll



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old October 6th 17, 03:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello US competition pilots.
Our annual poll about topics related to competition and associated rules is now open at http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php.
It is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Feedback from the poll and associated comments, as well as messages via e-mail to committee members, are the basis for our annual deliberations.
Please participate and mention to your contest buddies.
The poll is open until October 18th.
For the RC
UH


Sean,
Thanks for advocating that we consider FAI rules. I was pleased to see the topic in the poll.

If the Rules Committee is anything like the US Team Committee someone volunteers to produce the text and the committee comments on it and that's it. You get the natural bias of the individuals involved - this is normal.

Perhaps the best way to influence this is to submit suggested poll questions to the committee during summer. I remember being polled for questions at the Uvalde rules meeting. My topics got included but I did not provide suggested question text, so some kind fellow wrote the question without my involvement. Overall it appears to be working.

Each question has a comment box where you could suggest what the question should have been and your response. It's hard to please everyone but the comment box really helps.

UH and Diane rescued me and my trailer from the side of a dark and rainy NJ highway on the way to Uvalde after a van fuel line failure. God bless them.. This is not the behavior that I associate with some master rules plot.

Let's try to find a positive way to encourage reasoned dialogue.

Cheers,
Bob Fletcher 90
Ads
  #12  
Old October 6th 17, 07:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 999
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

90,

I see three systemic and troubling issues with the SSA US rules system (opinion poll, RC, etc.). We have discussed these offline, and you made some strong points. Nonetheless, the current system is quite flawed (biased) if you are not part of the SSA good old boys, anti-FAI, groupthink. You made another great point that this bias is natural and difficult to purge (and bias systems do not want to be exterminated). That is the heart of the issue.

MY PRIMARY CONCERN with US rules remains that doing so when the international soaring community already manages the FAI rules, is exceptionally inefficient. US rules are a HUGE waste of time when you consider a rule system is already available and is already used by the vast majority of the soaring world, right now, today. Don't we have better things to focus on?

What is the value of US Rules? What do we gain by recreating and maintaining our own custom "wheels" for everything? Do we have higher contest participation? Greater safety? Higher growth? More Youth? No. No, we do not.. Think about that for a moment. Despite no tangible value, we still spend the resources to manage: The US rules definitions, US Rules scoring software, US rules handicaps, SSA contest management systems (registration, etc.), SSA scoring display websites (SSA.org, SUCKS!), SSA contest reporting, SSA contest tracking, etc. Also, having our own obscure US rule system isolates our contest pilots, and our youth from the FAI raking system, contest reporting community, social media, etc.

1) The US Rules Committee has been staffed exclusively by people who genuinely believe that US rules are a better path and the FAI rules are bad. Without this general viewpoint, their election to the US RC is highly unlikely, to this day. That is a biased system.

2) The US Rules opinion poll is written by these same US rules "fans" who make it to the committee. They are inherently biased. US rules ARE DOGMA to them. Now that some pressure is on them (return to FAI makes sense to many US pilots), they are paying lip service to the FAI idea (offering a slow change option, whatever that means). I believe they are also trying to buy time to (they hope) effect change in other areas (FAI scoring, etc.). Most of the Good Old Boys do not want FAI rules. They still, in general, actively dislike the FAI and strongly prefer the power the US rules system provides them (killing technology, etc.). They even go so far as to write their own point/counterpoint addendums to many of the most controversial questions in their own poll. And as you might expect, those point/counterpoint descriptions are WAY OFF THE MARK in describing the argument for FAI rules, for no out the top start, for no extra TAT distance accumulation in ASSIGNED(?) task turns, etc. I'll point this out in a blog post I am writing, as promised. I have saved screenshots of all opinion polls that I have experienced. The examples are PLENTIFUL.

3) The same gang then "analyzes" the results and makes policy.

I will continue to advocate for a better system for determining our rules direction.

Sean
7T

At a minimum, the counterpoints in the questions should be written (or linked externally) to a real argument by those who believe passionately in them.. Not paraphrased by those who don't want them.



On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:57:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello US competition pilots.
Our annual poll about topics related to competition and associated rules is now open at http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php.
It is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Feedback from the poll and associated comments, as well as messages via e-mail to committee members, are the basis for our annual deliberations.
Please participate and mention to your contest buddies.
The poll is open until October 18th.
For the RC
UH


Sean,
Thanks for advocating that we consider FAI rules. I was pleased to see the topic in the poll.

If the Rules Committee is anything like the US Team Committee someone volunteers to produce the text and the committee comments on it and that's it. You get the natural bias of the individuals involved - this is normal.

Perhaps the best way to influence this is to submit suggested poll questions to the committee during summer. I remember being polled for questions at the Uvalde rules meeting. My topics got included but I did not provide suggested question text, so some kind fellow wrote the question without my involvement. Overall it appears to be working.

Each question has a comment box where you could suggest what the question should have been and your response. It's hard to please everyone but the comment box really helps.

UH and Diane rescued me and my trailer from the side of a dark and rainy NJ highway on the way to Uvalde after a van fuel line failure. God bless them. This is not the behavior that I associate with some master rules plot.

Let's try to find a positive way to encourage reasoned dialogue.

Cheers,
Bob Fletcher 90

  #13  
Old October 7th 17, 01:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 447
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

Why maintain control over our own rules? Exhibit A would be the recent changes to the FAI handicaps discussed on another thread. That isn't a proposal, that's the rule, right now. It might be amusing to Moshe, but it's just plain idiotic to anyone with experience in handicapped comps.

There's an effort under way to rationalize the scoring of FAI comps. I think everyone agrees the current system is not a rational one. The only opposition to change comes from teams who have become proficient at exploiting the weirdness in the current system. If this passes, then my main objection to the FAI rules goes away. As far as starts, turnpoints, finishes, there are things they do better, things we do better. I would like to see our rules converge, using the best of both.

Tracking isn't rules related. Creative individuals out there doing creative stuff and I hope we see more.

Scoring results... belly laugh time: it's Soaring Spot that completely sucks. In a comp with 3 classes, the daily and cumulative results are spread over 6 pages -- a maddeningly low information density. Our results page (singular) is far superior.

Bias...? As though you have none? Another belly laugh.

In summary, most of us aren't too fussed with the rules because the rules are pretty well tuned right now. We know that -- by and large -- the same guys are going to win. The same other guys are going to invent the same excuses for not participating. There are things that could be done to change this... almost all for the worse. We could screw up the handicaps, we could insist that we call 30% ATs (which would have turned the recent R4S contest, for instance, from near idyllic into a landout nightmare), we could do away with useful things that occasionally prove exceptionally useful like the safety finish.

I think you are poking a hornets' nest to no purpose.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 2:02:30 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
90,

I see three systemic and troubling issues with the SSA US rules system (opinion poll, RC, etc.). We have discussed these offline, and you made some strong points. Nonetheless, the current system is quite flawed (biased) if you are not part of the SSA good old boys, anti-FAI, groupthink. You made another great point that this bias is natural and difficult to purge (and bias systems do not want to be exterminated). That is the heart of the issue.

MY PRIMARY CONCERN with US rules remains that doing so when the international soaring community already manages the FAI rules, is exceptionally inefficient. US rules are a HUGE waste of time when you consider a rule system is already available and is already used by the vast majority of the soaring world, right now, today. Don't we have better things to focus on?

What is the value of US Rules? What do we gain by recreating and maintaining our own custom "wheels" for everything? Do we have higher contest participation? Greater safety? Higher growth? More Youth? No. No, we do not. Think about that for a moment. Despite no tangible value, we still spend the resources to manage: The US rules definitions, US Rules scoring software, US rules handicaps, SSA contest management systems (registration, etc.), SSA scoring display websites (SSA.org, SUCKS!), SSA contest reporting, SSA contest tracking, etc. Also, having our own obscure US rule system isolates our contest pilots, and our youth from the FAI raking system, contest reporting community, social media, etc.

1) The US Rules Committee has been staffed exclusively by people who genuinely believe that US rules are a better path and the FAI rules are bad. Without this general viewpoint, their election to the US RC is highly unlikely, to this day. That is a biased system.

2) The US Rules opinion poll is written by these same US rules "fans" who make it to the committee. They are inherently biased. US rules ARE DOGMA to them. Now that some pressure is on them (return to FAI makes sense to many US pilots), they are paying lip service to the FAI idea (offering a slow change option, whatever that means). I believe they are also trying to buy time to (they hope) effect change in other areas (FAI scoring, etc.). Most of the Good Old Boys do not want FAI rules. They still, in general, actively dislike the FAI and strongly prefer the power the US rules system provides them (killing technology, etc.). They even go so far as to write their own point/counterpoint addendums to many of the most controversial questions in their own poll. And as you might expect, those point/counterpoint descriptions are WAY OFF THE MARK in describing the argument for FAI rules, for no out the top start, for no extra TAT distance accumulation in ASSIGNED(?) task turns, etc. I'll point this out in a blog post I am writing, as promised. I have saved screenshots of all opinion polls that I have experienced. The examples are PLENTIFUL.

3) The same gang then "analyzes" the results and makes policy.

I will continue to advocate for a better system for determining our rules direction.

Sean
7T

At a minimum, the counterpoints in the questions should be written (or linked externally) to a real argument by those who believe passionately in them. Not paraphrased by those who don't want them.



On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 10:57:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello US competition pilots.
Our annual poll about topics related to competition and associated rules is now open at http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php.
It is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Feedback from the poll and associated comments, as well as messages via e-mail to committee members, are the basis for our annual deliberations.
Please participate and mention to your contest buddies.
The poll is open until October 18th.
For the RC
UH


Sean,
Thanks for advocating that we consider FAI rules. I was pleased to see the topic in the poll.

If the Rules Committee is anything like the US Team Committee someone volunteers to produce the text and the committee comments on it and that's it. You get the natural bias of the individuals involved - this is normal.

Perhaps the best way to influence this is to submit suggested poll questions to the committee during summer. I remember being polled for questions at the Uvalde rules meeting. My topics got included but I did not provide suggested question text, so some kind fellow wrote the question without my involvement. Overall it appears to be working.

Each question has a comment box where you could suggest what the question should have been and your response. It's hard to please everyone but the comment box really helps.

UH and Diane rescued me and my trailer from the side of a dark and rainy NJ highway on the way to Uvalde after a van fuel line failure. God bless them. This is not the behavior that I associate with some master rules plot..

Let's try to find a positive way to encourage reasoned dialogue.

Cheers,
Bob Fletcher 90


  #14  
Old October 8th 17, 08:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 406
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:02:30 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
90,

I see three systemic and troubling issues with the SSA US rules system (opinion poll, RC, etc.). We have discussed these offline, and you made some strong points. Nonetheless, the current system is quite flawed (biased) if you are not part of the SSA good old boys, anti-FAI, groupthink. You made another great point that this bias is natural and difficult to purge (and bias systems do not want to be exterminated). That is the heart of the issue.


Sean,

Personal comments notwithstanding, you are more than welcome to post point-by-point perspectives on any specific differences between US and FAI rules that you feel strongly about. Your fellow pilots would probably appreciate a thoughtful analysis backed up by data and experience. On the other hand, sweeping accusations about bias and conspiracy theories about "deep-state" smoke-filled rooms at SSA headquarters don't particularly advance any useful agenda or illuminate anyone's thinking - though I know some of your fellow pilots get a chuckle out of reading them.

I personally supported adding questions about FAI rules to this year's survey, not because US racing pilots (aside from you) have been clamoring for a change (they haven't), but because I felt it was worth having a discussion on the subject and getting real input. I have no particular interest in preserving the US rules as an independent structure, nor do I have a personal agenda to do away with US rules. My agenda is, first, to ensure safe and fair contest flying in the US; second, increase the participation in and enjoyment of sailplane racing in the US; and third, improve the skill and competitiveness of US racing pilots. Sean Fidler's personal agenda items don't get much attention unless they fit into one of those three.

As is always the case with questions about rules, there needs to some care taken to ensure that respondents are able to provide informed feedback. Otherwise, poll questions (as we have learned from experience) give very poor guidance as to what pilots really want, let alone how to go about it. The idea of doing a line-by-line comparison of each area of rules and a deep description of how each affects individual and group behavior and results under various scenarios, is something relatively few people are willing to endure (as evidenced by the numbers of people lining up to serve on the RC - not many).

We made an attempt over half a dozen iterations to give some flavor of the qualitative differences rule systems create in the racing experience so that pilots would be at least somewhat informed before giving input. There is no perfect way to do that - convert tens of hours of comparison and analysis into something where people can read a digestible about of material and click a response. Speaking personally, my goal was to inform not persuade respondents as I have no particular agenda one way or the other, but I do take this responsibility as one that needs sober guidance and decision-making.

Looking forward to reading you topic-by-topic analysis.

Andy Blackburn
9B
  #15  
Old October 15th 17, 06:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 241
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 1:53:22 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:02:30 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
90,

I see three systemic and troubling issues with the SSA US rules system (opinion poll, RC, etc.). We have discussed these offline, and you made some strong points. Nonetheless, the current system is quite flawed (biased) if you are not part of the SSA good old boys, anti-FAI, groupthink. You made another great point that this bias is natural and difficult to purge (and bias systems do not want to be exterminated). That is the heart of the issue.


Sean,

Personal comments notwithstanding, you are more than welcome to post point-by-point perspectives on any specific differences between US and FAI rules that you feel strongly about. Your fellow pilots would probably appreciate a thoughtful analysis backed up by data and experience. On the other hand, sweeping accusations about bias and conspiracy theories about "deep-state" smoke-filled rooms at SSA headquarters don't particularly advance any useful agenda or illuminate anyone's thinking - though I know some of your fellow pilots get a chuckle out of reading them.

I personally supported adding questions about FAI rules to this year's survey, not because US racing pilots (aside from you) have been clamoring for a change (they haven't), but because I felt it was worth having a discussion on the subject and getting real input. I have no particular interest in preserving the US rules as an independent structure, nor do I have a personal agenda to do away with US rules. My agenda is, first, to ensure safe and fair contest flying in the US; second, increase the participation in and enjoyment of sailplane racing in the US; and third, improve the skill and competitiveness of US racing pilots. Sean Fidler's personal agenda items don't get much attention unless they fit into one of those three.

As is always the case with questions about rules, there needs to some care taken to ensure that respondents are able to provide informed feedback. Otherwise, poll questions (as we have learned from experience) give very poor guidance as to what pilots really want, let alone how to go about it. The idea of doing a line-by-line comparison of each area of rules and a deep description of how each affects individual and group behavior and results under various scenarios, is something relatively few people are willing to endure (as evidenced by the numbers of people lining up to serve on the RC - not many).

We made an attempt over half a dozen iterations to give some flavor of the qualitative differences rule systems create in the racing experience so that pilots would be at least somewhat informed before giving input. There is no perfect way to do that - convert tens of hours of comparison and analysis into something where people can read a digestible about of material and click a response. Speaking personally, my goal was to inform not persuade respondents as I have no particular agenda one way or the other, but I do take this responsibility as one that needs sober guidance and decision-making.

Looking forward to reading you topic-by-topic analysis.

Andy Blackburn
9B


The debate has started! https://seanfidler.com/2017/10/inher...n-poll-part-1/

Best. Tom #711.
  #16  
Old October 15th 17, 10:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 424
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 1:54:27 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 1:53:22 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 11:02:30 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
90,

I see three systemic and troubling issues with the SSA US rules system (opinion poll, RC, etc.). We have discussed these offline, and you made some strong points. Nonetheless, the current system is quite flawed (biased) if you are not part of the SSA good old boys, anti-FAI, groupthink. You made another great point that this bias is natural and difficult to purge (and bias systems do not want to be exterminated). That is the heart of the issue.


Sean,

Personal comments notwithstanding, you are more than welcome to post point-by-point perspectives on any specific differences between US and FAI rules that you feel strongly about. Your fellow pilots would probably appreciate a thoughtful analysis backed up by data and experience. On the other hand, sweeping accusations about bias and conspiracy theories about "deep-state" smoke-filled rooms at SSA headquarters don't particularly advance any useful agenda or illuminate anyone's thinking - though I know some of your fellow pilots get a chuckle out of reading them.

I personally supported adding questions about FAI rules to this year's survey, not because US racing pilots (aside from you) have been clamoring for a change (they haven't), but because I felt it was worth having a discussion on the subject and getting real input. I have no particular interest in preserving the US rules as an independent structure, nor do I have a personal agenda to do away with US rules. My agenda is, first, to ensure safe and fair contest flying in the US; second, increase the participation in and enjoyment of sailplane racing in the US; and third, improve the skill and competitiveness of US racing pilots. Sean Fidler's personal agenda items don't get much attention unless they fit into one of those three.

As is always the case with questions about rules, there needs to some care taken to ensure that respondents are able to provide informed feedback. Otherwise, poll questions (as we have learned from experience) give very poor guidance as to what pilots really want, let alone how to go about it. The idea of doing a line-by-line comparison of each area of rules and a deep description of how each affects individual and group behavior and results under various scenarios, is something relatively few people are willing to endure (as evidenced by the numbers of people lining up to serve on the RC - not many).

We made an attempt over half a dozen iterations to give some flavor of the qualitative differences rule systems create in the racing experience so that pilots would be at least somewhat informed before giving input. There is no perfect way to do that - convert tens of hours of comparison and analysis into something where people can read a digestible about of material and click a response. Speaking personally, my goal was to inform not persuade respondents as I have no particular agenda one way or the other, but I do take this responsibility as one that needs sober guidance and decision-making.

Looking forward to reading you topic-by-topic analysis.

Andy Blackburn
9B


The debate has started! https://seanfidler.com/2017/10/inher...n-poll-part-1/

Best. Tom #711.


I agree with Sean. Why can't the poll just ask a simple question without the highly subjective "education" included in the question? I wrote about this long time ago. The same type of questions with "appropriate education" was used for many years to delay creation of the club class.

Andrzej
  #17  
Old October 17th 17, 01:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,586
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello US competition pilots.
Our annual poll about topics related to competition and associated rules is now open at http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php.
It is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Feedback from the poll and associated comments, as well as messages via e-mail to committee members, are the basis for our annual deliberations.
Please participate and mention to your contest buddies.
The poll is open until October 18th.
For the RC
UH


Reminder to US competition pilots.
The poll closes in a couple of days. If you have not responded, please take the time now to provide your input. Every response counts and all comments are taken into account in the RC deliberations.
For the RC
UH
  #18  
Old October 17th 17, 02:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Retting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

UH....I can't find the poll on the SSA website.
Went under competition.....found 2016 results under the 2017 section.
Looked on main page...no luck.
R
  #19  
Old October 17th 17, 02:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Retting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

UH....I was unable to find the poll site on the SSA website. Looked under competition, main page, etc. No luck.
Would you post the address again , please.
R
  #20  
Old October 17th 17, 03:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,770
Default US Competition Pilot Poll

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 7:26:33 AM UTC-6, Retting wrote:
UH....I was unable to find the poll site on the SSA website. Looked under competition, main page, etc. No luck.
Would you post the address again , please.
R


Posted to rotating news on SSA web site.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Competition Pilot Poll and Election [email protected] Soaring 155 October 31st 16 04:31 PM
SSA Competition Pilot Poll Results [email protected] Soaring 10 October 30th 16 04:23 AM
US Competition Pilot Opinion Poll Results Posted John Godfrey (QT)[_2_] Soaring 0 November 16th 10 03:45 AM
2009 SSA Competition Pilot Poll Results [email protected] Soaring 5 November 9th 09 02:20 AM
US Competition Pilot Poll Karl Striedieck Soaring 1 September 19th 03 02:53 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2017 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.