F/A-22 IRST?

In a white paper from the Lexington Institute, it is claimed (most
likely by Loren Thompson, the Lexingtin Institute defense analyst and
resident Raptor cheerleader) that the F/A-22 has an Infrared Search
and Track capability. Specifically, on page 8 of the attachment
below, the following passage:

"The sensor usually described in open sources is the main radar — an
electronically steered array that can simultaneously provide
surveillance, fire control, jamming and other functions. However,
Raptor also carries other sensors such as an infrared surveillance and
tracking system that are seldom discussed."

I have never read this anywhere else. Does Dr. Thompson know
something the rest of the non-classified world doesn't? Does anyone
else have any info on this? Or is he just blowing smoke up our
collective keisters?

"Mike Zaharis" wrote in message
om...
In a white paper from the Lexington Institute, it is claimed (most
likely by Loren Thompson, the Lexingtin Institute defense analyst and
resident Raptor cheerleader) that the F/A-22 has an Infrared Search
and Track capability. Specifically, on page 8 of the attachment
below, the following passage:

"The sensor usually described in open sources is the main radar - an
electronically steered array that can simultaneously provide
surveillance, fire control, jamming and other functions. However,
Raptor also carries other sensors such as an infrared surveillance and
tracking system that are seldom discussed."

I have never read this anywhere else. Does Dr. Thompson know
something the rest of the non-classified world doesn't? Does anyone
else have any info on this? Or is he just blowing smoke up our
collective keisters?

The F-22 was to have an IRST, but it was subsequently deleted from the
program. There has been some amount of informed speculation that with the
name change to "F/A-22", a targeting FLIR will instead be mounted
internally. See: www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/
channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/sb03_16.xml

Brooks

In article ,
(Mike Zaharis) wrote:

In a white paper from the Lexington Institute, it is claimed (most
likely by Loren Thompson, the Lexingtin Institute defense analyst and
resident Raptor cheerleader) that the F/A-22 has an Infrared Search
and Track capability. Specifically, on page 8 of the attachment
below, the following passage:

"The sensor usually described in open sources is the main radar — an
electronically steered array that can simultaneously provide
surveillance, fire control, jamming and other functions. However,
Raptor also carries other sensors such as an infrared surveillance and
tracking system that are seldom discussed."

I have never read this anywhere else. Does Dr. Thompson know
something the rest of the non-classified world doesn't? Does anyone
else have any info on this? Or is he just blowing smoke up our
collective keisters?

The term "infrared surveillance and tracking system" can cover a
lot of ground. For instance, a MAWS falls under that description.
IRST isn't the only thing that used IR.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

(Mike Zaharis) wrote in message . com...
In a white paper from the Lexington Institute, it is claimed (most
likely by Loren Thompson, the Lexingtin Institute defense analyst and
resident Raptor cheerleader) that the F/A-22 has an Infrared Search
and Track capability. Specifically, on page 8 of the attachment
below, the following passage:

"The sensor usually described in open sources is the main radar ? an
electronically steered array that can simultaneously provide
surveillance, fire control, jamming and other functions. However,
Raptor also carries other sensors such as an infrared surveillance and
tracking system that are seldom discussed."

I have never read this anywhere else. Does Dr. Thompson know
something the rest of the non-classified world doesn't? Does anyone
else have any info on this? Or is he just blowing smoke up our
collective keisters?


BTW, here's the link I talked about:

http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/de...f/LEX_FA22.pdf

Thanks for responses.

(Harry Andreas) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Mike Zaharis) wrote:

"The sensor usually described in open sources is the main radar ? an
electronically steered array that can simultaneously provide
surveillance, fire control, jamming and other functions. However,
Raptor also carries other sensors such as an infrared surveillance and
tracking system that are seldom discussed."



The term "infrared surveillance and tracking system" can cover a
lot of ground. For instance, a MAWS falls under that description.
IRST isn't the only thing that used IR.

This is what has me confused by his terminology. I wasn't sure if, by
using the phrase "infrared surveillance and tracking system", he meant
to say "infrared search and tracking system".

I kind of wonder if this is a specific misinterpretation that the
author was hoping for.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:11:54 -0400, Kevin Brooks wrote:

The F-22 was to have an IRST, but it was subsequently deleted from the
program.

Do you happen to know why?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:00:02 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:11:54 -0400, Kevin Brooks wrote:

The F-22 was to have an IRST, but it was subsequently deleted from the
program.

Do you happen to know why?


$$$$$

"phil hunt" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:11:54 -0400, Kevin Brooks
wrote:

The F-22 was to have an IRST, but it was subsequently deleted from the
program.

Do you happen to know why?

IIRC, it was mostly money and project timeline concerns; it was thought that
as the aircraft's primary weapons and other sensors adequately (or more than
adequately) support its BVR mission, and along with its stealthiness, that
it was not a "have to have" item in the initial operational version. It may
have also been influenced by sensor fusion concerns--it will already have
what is probably the most complex and ambitious sensor fusion capability
flying, and adding another sensor into the mix could have been more trouble
than it is worth at this time. I believe the IRST will likely be included in
future spirals, and a FLIR/target designation capability will undoubtedly be
added in the first spiral.

Brooks

Having used an IRSTS in the F102A for over a year and a half (and
teaching its use to other pilots) I am continually amazed at the
refusal of the USAF and USN to employ some form of IRSTS in their
fighters. As simple and crude as the Deuce's IR system was, it still
added a whole new spectrum of attack modes to the weapons system.
Undetectable, unjammable, good against fighters in the weeds, line of
sight detection against head-on B58s at M 2.0 and picking up
afterburning 106s at 40 miles head-on. Surely a 21st century IRSTS
would be far superior to what we enjoyed back in the 60's. And the
Deuce's system weighed less than 50 pounds all told . . . the powers
that be might ask themselves why the Russians have IRSTS on all their
fighters.
Walt BJ

WaltBJ wrote:

Having used an IRSTS in the F102A for over a year and a half (and
teaching its use to other pilots) I am continually amazed at the
refusal of the USAF and USN to employ some form of IRSTS in their
fighters.

Walt, the F-14 has had an IRSTS since the earlyt '80s, and the F-14D had
both IRSTS and TCS. Modern FLIR pods can also do double duty as IRSTS,
albeit they usually will be cued by radar.

As simple and crude as the Deuce's IR system was, it still
added a whole new spectrum of attack modes to the weapons system.
Undetectable, unjammable, good against fighters in the weeds, line of
sight detection against head-on B58s at M 2.0 and picking up
afterburning 106s at 40 miles head-on. Surely a 21st century IRSTS
would be far superior to what we enjoyed back in the 60's. And the
Deuce's system weighed less than 50 pounds all told . . . the powers
that be might ask themselves why the Russians have IRSTS on all their
fighters.

Part of the reason is that they were designed to operate under tight GCI,
and their a/c radars were/are generally much inferior to US systems as
far as performance goes. So, the ability to be vectored by GCI within
range and then use a passive system for acquisition/tracking instead of
letting the opposing pilots know their general direction (by RWR) where
they're coming from,which allows the other side to radar search for them
long before they reach their own detection range, probably plays a big
part. As long as we feel we have the BVR range advantage, we don't want
to close to IR missile range. In the case of the F-22 and even more the
F-35, both of them will be getting a lot of their info from off-board
sensors, as well passive sensors (the F-35 will have two internal FLIRS,
one forward and the other downward-looking). And then there's always the
money issue, which Kevin mentioned -- with the F-22 costs spiraling out
of sight, I imagine they looked to cut the 'nice to have' stuff to try
and keep the cost reasonable [Sic.] and make sure it gets into
production, after which they can then load it up with all the goodies as
retrofits.

As to Russian IRSTS, I had a conversation with an aircrew/tech
development type of a friendly power whose country was able to examine
and evaluate the performance of the one on the MiG-29; he was distinctly
underwhelmed, especially compared to some of the stuff his own airforce
was using. He also wasn't terribly complementary about the MiG-29's high
alpha guns tracking capability compared to western a/c (unacceptable
amounts of buffet).

Guy