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#181
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In article ,
Billy Beck wrote: One interesting thing I've noted is that Vietnam vets who fought hand-to-hand combat seem to overwhelmingly be far less retroactively gung-ho on the war than those who flew fixed wing far above. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe because they were fighting different kinds of wars. They each had their own peculiar and different kinds of hell, but generally speaking, the one aloft was a whole lot cleaner and smelled a whole lot better than the one on the ground. Uhm.. what the hell are you two doing here? Isn't there an infantry group where you could go hang? Were you asked to go to an architecture group when you posted here about the symmetry of the Vietnam War Memorial? No? Then, pack sand. --Mike |
#182
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:14:01 GMT, Michael Wise wrote:
In article , Ed Rasimus wrote: ...It also talks extensively about the VA's interest in perpetuating PTSD to the point of falsifying diagnoses for the purpose of maintaining high funding levels. Fair enough. I guess I'll have to read the book to find out the details. However, if the VA has falsified diagnoses for financial gain as the author apparently claims, it hasn't been very successful. Both Bush Sr. and Jr.'s admins have slashed VA funding tremendously. It seems like the leaders who beat the war drums the loudest and lavish money on the military the most...also have no qualms about screwing over the people who answered the call and paid for it in blood. The period addressed was the late '70, '80' and early '90s. The issue was the prevalence of PTSD from the Vietnam war. So, your linkage to funding cuts is a bit late. You might consider that Clinton also cut funding for vet programs--it was under his watch that my promised lifetime health care became an HMO under Tricare which I now pay for. The latest shining example is maimed vets (returning from Iraq) at Walter Reed actually being charged for their food (because the government didn't want to pay for it). I was hospitalized once during my active duty years (1968) and paid a per diem charge. You aren't really being charged--you've already been paid BAS (basic allowance for subsistence) and when your meals are provided, you repay what has already been advanced to you. I was hospitalized in 2003 for 2.5 days. Had a 10.5 hour cancer surgery and post-op care. Total bill was $16.80--that was the cost of the meals. Outrageous! (Please do not jump ahead and suggest that I'm all wet if I deny PTSD. I certainly do not. Read the book and see what Burkitt documents.) Sounds like a worthwhile read. The only book I've ever read concerning Vietnam was Chickenhawk....which being a helo type, I enjoyed immensely. It would be self-serving to suggest that you might enjoy When Thunder Rolled. There are several SAR stories you might find interesting. It is his conduct during the Winter Soldier testimony, his categorization of the military still in harm's way as criminals and guilty of atrocities, Did he say that all military personnel in Vietnam were criminals and guilty of atrocities? Yes, he did. his throwing of someone else's medals over the White House fence What of it? You don't see a problem with such a grandstanding effort using someone else's awards? his alignment with VVAW and offering of aid/comfort to the enemy. How did he offer either aid or comfort to the enemy? His picture hangs in honor in the Vietnamese War Remembrance Museum. He now seeks to turn the clock back and trade on his combat experience as that seems to offer more traction in a nation at war. He was silent on it for a long time, but the media kept bringing it up...over and over again. Is he supposed to remain quiet about his honorable service to country? C'mon. You really haven't been paying attention. Kerry is the one who repeatedly brings it up. His TV spots running in CO start out with him slogging through the jungle (unusual position for a Swift boat CC), and listing his awards. The Republicans made such a big deal about Clinton not having served and avoiding serving. Now that their opposition served in combat and served with honor while their candidate and many of the people in his admin (the people who really run this country) did everything in their power to avoid putting their asses on the line is on the table...they do everything to discredit honor where honor is due and inflate the service to country of a chickenhawk administration. I think we've been repeatedly through the issue of length of service between the two candidates. We've also discussed the dangers involved in flying single-seat/single-engine military tactical jets. It's bad enough when chickenhawk politicians use such tactics, but its shameful when real vets do. You don't have to like John Kerry (I personally don't although the alternative is unthinkable) and you don't have to vote for him. But to **** on his service because he came home against the war (like many vets) and was outspoken about it is shameful. I feel no shame at all. I've got a pretty clear idea about what honor is and what the "band of brothers" thing is about. ... Didn't you say a while back that you were in the CSAR business? Never got to employ your skills? Nope. About 10 years too young to have served in Vietnam and got out well before Iraq. I was in the active reserves (HS-246) during the first Iraq affair, but never got called...and quit the reserved after hostilities ended (out of disgust over US troops being sent there in the first place). Is it unfair to note that you should have been told that when you signed on to the reserves that you could be "sent over there in the first place"? And, to go a bit further, to note that your service seems quite parallel to the President's? Except, of course that when you signed on there was not the possibility of conflict and when there was the possibility you got out? Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#183
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:33:55 GMT, Michael Wise wrote:
1) Since when do soldiers in the field receive BAS? (or are you suggesting the military enrolled them in BAS while they were flying armless, legless, eyeless, or whatever back home?) Except for the lowest ranking enlisted troops, almost everyone gets BAS. Low ranks get a "meal card" which they display at the chow hall to eat for free. Those on BAS pay the surcharge rate when they eat in the chow hall. It has long been a sore point that troops deployed in the field or TDY to bare-base facilities get docked their BAS when they submit their travel vouchers. It isn't a new policy. 2) Pedantic attempts to enforce BS bureaucracy by desk pilots be damned, anybody who is in a hospital with wounds sustained in the course of doing what their country ordered them to do (right or wrong) shouldn't be charged squat for anything. My wife has a favorite quote: "It ain't right, but it's real." What you think is "right" means nothing. What is in the JTR's is real. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#184
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#185
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"Tammy" wrote in message om... How many medals for bravery and heroism did George W. Bush earn? How about Cheney? Trent Lott? Gingrich? They all earned the same number as Bill Clinton. Why do you ask? |
#186
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#187
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Subject: Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve
From: "Steven P. McNicoll" Date: 6/14/2004 8:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: et "Tammy" wrote in message . com... How many medals for bravery and heroism did George W. Bush earn? How about Cheney? Trent Lott? Gingrich? They all earned the same number as Bill Clinton. Why do you ask? Clinton is in the distant past, same place you are. |
#188
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So according to your "logic," President Washington should have never "turned
his back on" Benedict Arnold? Others may criticaize Kerry's service during the war; much of his record is arguable. I'm pretty sure it's his actions after the war that the other vets find disagreeable. Unlike Art Kramer, I don't believe in giving someone a lifetime pass for everything because they served. Steve Swartz "Michael Wise" wrote in message ... In article , Ed Rasimus wrote: One interesting thing I've noted is that Vietnam vets who fought hand-to-hand combat seem to overwhelmingly be far less retroactively gung-ho on the war than those who flew fixed wing far above. Why do you suppose that is? There could be a number of reasons. First, the number who today claim "hand-to-hand combat" seems unfortunately to be drastically inflated by thousands of poseurs claiming to be something they were not. See Burkitt's "Stolen Valor" for some astonishing tales. I doubt any of us who are or have been on active duty have much trouble spotting a poseur. I'm speaking based on conversations I had with people who most definitely fought hand-to-hand, like the people I served with who flew CSAR, some of the people I worked with at the VA, and more than a handful of disabled vets who I assisted in getting their benefits. Burkitt reserves a lot of space in his book to discuss the VA. Meaning what? Does he claim combat vets and/or disabled vets working for the VA are less than honest? During Rolling Thunder, I got up each day and went to a briefing with 25 other guys. On average, each and every day for six months, one of those 25 would be lost. Some days, none. Some days three or four. Average, one a day. Keep going to the briefing and one day you will be the one. Well my hat goes off to you and to all those who paid in blood or risked that blood doing what their country told them to do. I find it next to impossible to understand how any vet (especially a combat vet) would make statements about not "****ing on somebody if they were one fire" when that somebody also risked their all and shed blood for their country. Partisanship should never trump honor and respect. It's sad that uber-partisans of both major political parties in the U.S. have lost sight of that (if they ever had it in the first place). As for those who flew "far above", you might want to consider the sustained loss rates of the Rolling Thunder participants in comparison to those "hand-to-hand" combats. Or, maybe check the proportion of POWs between the ground and air combatants. Nobody questions the dangers faced by aircrews who flew missions in Vietnam. However, in a fast-mover your odds of getting back to base outside the country for a cold beer and a hot meal are much better than the grunt in the jungles with an M-16 even surviving. I don't see how that can be denied. It's one of the reasons I wasn't a grunt...even though I knew the chances of surviving any more than a handful of potential CSAR missions was not good. The odds of completing a 100 mission NVN tour were poor. In '66 an F-105 was lost every 65 missions over NVN. For every five that started a tour, three of the five would be lost. 40% survival rate. There are definitely ground units from the war that suffered similar rates, but that is the exception. I don't doubt what you're saying for a minute. Never having been in combat, I can't speak from experience, but numbers on paper be damned...I'll take fighting from above over eyeball to eyeball at close quarters any day. --Mike |
#189
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So while we're waiting for Michael to apologize and take responsibility for
his spreading of anti-bush lies and propaganda . . . . Steve Swartz "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:33:55 GMT, Michael Wise wrote: 1) Since when do soldiers in the field receive BAS? (or are you suggesting the military enrolled them in BAS while they were flying armless, legless, eyeless, or whatever back home?) Except for the lowest ranking enlisted troops, almost everyone gets BAS. Low ranks get a "meal card" which they display at the chow hall to eat for free. Those on BAS pay the surcharge rate when they eat in the chow hall. It has long been a sore point that troops deployed in the field or TDY to bare-base facilities get docked their BAS when they submit their travel vouchers. It isn't a new policy. 2) Pedantic attempts to enforce BS bureaucracy by desk pilots be damned, anybody who is in a hospital with wounds sustained in the course of doing what their country ordered them to do (right or wrong) shouldn't be charged squat for anything. My wife has a favorite quote: "It ain't right, but it's real." What you think is "right" means nothing. What is in the JTR's is real. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#190
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So while we're waiting for Michael to apologize and take responsibility for
spreading his ant-Bush lies and propaganda . . . Steve Swartz "Buzzer" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:14:01 GMT, Michael Wise wrote: Both Bush Sr. and Jr.'s admins have slashed VA funding tremendously. "...John McNeill, deputy director of the VFW, credited the Bush administration with increasing the VA's health care budget during the last few years..." ? The latest shining example is maimed vets (returning from Iraq) at Walter Reed actually being charged for their food (because the government didn't want to pay for it). "The rule was established because most military personnel receive $8.10 a day as a "basic allowance for subsistence" for food. But when they are hospitalized, the government tries to recoup the money on the theory that they are eating hospital food and therefore are double-dipping." Military personnel that had to eat in the chow hall, and usually live on base, pay nothing while in the hospital, but those authorized, usually to live off base, whether married or unmarried get $8.10 a day extra to pay for food. So if they forgive the $8.10 a day one person makes money and the other gets nothing? And they will probably end up changing the law because the single person living in the barracks eating in the chow hall is always the one coming out on the short end of the stick... |
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