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ATC stand and deliver? (was: O'Hare Controllers Raise Alarm, Blame Small Planes



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 9th 03, 03:10 PM
journeyman
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Default ATC stand and deliver? (was: O'Hare Controllers Raise Alarm, Blame Small Planes

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:44:13 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll
wrote:

The solution does involve more spending, on concrete.


You already have a more than adequate supply of the stuff. :-)


Morris (with my own above-the-neck supply)
  #2  
Old July 9th 03, 03:39 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"journeyman" wrote in message
u.com...

You already have a more than adequate supply of the stuff. :-)


Ya live in a cave?


  #3  
Old July 9th 03, 04:04 PM
Chip Jones
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"Newps" wrote in message
...


Sydney Hoeltzli wrote:
Newps wrote:

[snipped]


IOW, you're saying if ZTL is understaffed, blame NATCA for
poor negotiation?


Not necessarily. There are a lot of facilities in the Southern region.
Others may have a greater need.


LOL! That's a hoot! The Southern Region is full of fat and happy towers
and four not so happy Centers.



In order to fully staff ARTCCs and maintain system safety, are
controllers in general prepared to "give" anywhere else?


Not really. While I feel for Chip and others stuck in that hell hole
and others like it there's no way I'm going there. Not for a lousy
$150K per year.


The money is great. All I have to do is live long enough to spend it. I
believe that I can hang in for the next 12 years and then retire with a fat
account. I'll be 48...

[snipped]


One guy, especially many guys, can be the motivating force which
start the ball rolling and get NATCA and trade groups involved.


You mean like PATCO?


NATCA is working at it. How hard I can't say as staffing is irrelavant
to me right now, has been my whole career.


Staffing seems to be irrelevent for most FAA towers/terminals that I am
aware of. They have people. NATCA is 60% tower/terminal controllers and
they have tended to focus on tower/terminal issues. That's why
privatization is such a bugaboo for them- they recognize that FAA is on a
slippery slope after the Contract Tower program and that *all* of the towers
could be on the block at the stroke of a pen. That's a threat to their main
constituency. It doesn't take any imagination with Boeing ATC waiting in
the wings to see that the ATCSCC and all of the ARTCC's could follow...

Chip, ZTL



  #4  
Old July 10th 03, 12:49 AM
Larry Dighera
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On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:04:31 -0400, "Chip Jones"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

Staffing seems to be irrelevent for most FAA towers/terminals that I am
aware of. They have people. NATCA is 60% tower/terminal controllers and
they have tended to focus on tower/terminal issues. That's why
privatization is such a bugaboo for them- they recognize that FAA is on a
slippery slope after the Contract Tower program and that *all* of the towers
could be on the block at the stroke of a pen. That's a threat to their main
constituency.


What sort of union is afraid of organizing private sector workers? If
NATCA was a true labor organization, they would ATTRACT contract tower
personnel as new members by the fair wages, professional working
conditions, and job safety they could effect. If they can't attract
private sector members, NATCA needs to rethink its role.

  #5  
Old July 10th 03, 12:58 AM
Newps
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Larry Dighera wrote:


What sort of union is afraid of organizing private sector workers? If
NATCA was a true labor organization, they would ATTRACT contract tower
personnel as new members by the fair wages, professional working
conditions, and job safety they could effect. If they can't attract
private sector members, NATCA needs to rethink its role.


I remember them talking about organizing the contract towers. Not being
a union member I don't get the propaganda so not sure where that issue
stands. I know supervisors can become members and also some or all of
the office staff.



  #6  
Old July 10th 03, 01:08 AM
Chip Jones
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:04:31 -0400, "Chip Jones"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

Staffing seems to be irrelevent for most FAA towers/terminals that I am
aware of. They have people. NATCA is 60% tower/terminal controllers and
they have tended to focus on tower/terminal issues. That's why
privatization is such a bugaboo for them- they recognize that FAA is on a
slippery slope after the Contract Tower program and that *all* of the

towers
could be on the block at the stroke of a pen. That's a threat to their

main
constituency.


What sort of union is afraid of organizing private sector workers? If
NATCA was a true labor organization, they would ATTRACT contract tower
personnel as new members by the fair wages, professional working
conditions, and job safety they could effect. If they can't attract
private sector members, NATCA needs to rethink its role.


LOL! PATCO (remember them?) is currently organizing private sector towers.
They have the jump on NATCA, it seems...

Chip, ZTL


  #7  
Old July 10th 03, 06:11 AM
journeyman
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On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:55:50 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll
wrote:

I guess it's true, some people just can't tell a joke.


Actually, we make a matching pair: I can't tell one and you can't
take one. :-)


Morris (yes, that was another lame attempt at a joke)
  #8  
Old July 10th 03, 07:13 PM
Larry Dighera
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On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:08:22 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote in Message-Id:
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

How would the FAA issue an AD against defective parts that lack an
official paper-trail documenting the materials, processes, and
companies involved in their manufacture?


How does the CPSC (or the mfrs) issue a recall against consumer
goods that lack the FAA's mandated paper-trail?

They seem to manage. The companies involved even seem to do
more for the consumer.

Let's take an example. I purchased a baby swing at a garage
sale. A few months later, I was checking the CPSC web site
and saw a recall on what looked like my make and model of swing.
I called the mfr's 800 number given in the recall notice.
They asked me for the product numbers and told me where they
would be marked on the swing. These numbers enabled them to
determine that my swing indeed was involved in the recall.

They then took my name and address and sent me, at no charge,
a kit to modify my swing which IMHO actually did make it a better,
safer, more useable product.

Gosh -- no expensive FAA mandated official paper trail, and this
recall bit still worked.


If the FAA mandated paper-trail from raw material to finished part is
unnecessary, why do you think it was made it a requirement?

Now let's take the pending Superior air parts piston pin AD which
was pending a few years back when we bought our plane. Per engine
log, the relevant part had been installed in my plane during engine
overhaul 7 years ago. But for various reasons, I had my doubts.

I called the engine overhauler, who by FAA mandate is required to
maintain a paper trail, and asked about the overhaul records. They
weren't very willing to talk to me, and finally allowed as how the
FAA only requires the records to be kept for 3 yrs so those records
were gone. (They claimed flood damage after a hurricaine. FL company.
Maybe).

Here's the punch line: when one of the cylinders was pulled due to
a valve problem, *the piston pin which came out was made by an entirely
different manufacturer*. Since then we've lost 2 more cylinders
(Nuchrome Cermicrap), and each one has a different piston pin.


Once bitten by such a lack of records, an aircraft owner soon learns
to obtain copies of repair records AT THE TIME OF INSTALLATION, and
files them with the aircraft log books. The IA is required by FAA to
document all the parts used.

Wow, that FAA mandated paper trail really helped me out, heh heh.


If you (or the previous owner of your airplane) had kept a record of
the parts installed, it would have been possible for you to KNOW if
they were among those that were recalled. I fail to see how your
failure to keep a copy of the records reflects poorly on the FAA
mandated record keeping practices.


  #9  
Old July 10th 03, 09:50 PM
Michael
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Larry Dighera wrote
If the FAA mandated paper-trail from raw material to finished part is
unnecessary, why do you think it was made it a requirement?


Because it sounds good in theory while completely failing to achieve
the stated goals in practice? Because the FAA is staffed by a bunch
of useless bloody loonies? Because bureaucrats just like paperwork?
The correct answer is all of the above.

Once bitten by such a lack of records, an aircraft owner soon learns
to obtain copies of repair records AT THE TIME OF INSTALLATION, and
files them with the aircraft log books.


What percentage of aircraft valued in less than six figures do you
suppose have such records? Intent is irrelevant - all that matters is
what really happens in real life.

Michael
  #10  
Old July 10th 03, 11:04 PM
Snowbird
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Larry Dighera wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:08:22 GMT, Sydney Hoeltzli
wrote in Message-Id:
:
How does the CPSC (or the mfrs) issue a recall against consumer

goods that lack the FAA's mandated paper-trail?

They seem to manage. The companies involved even seem to do
more for the consumer.


Gosh -- no expensive FAA mandated official paper trail, and this
recall bit still worked.


If the FAA mandated paper-trail from raw material to finished part is
unnecessary, why do you think it was made it a requirement?


This would be pure speculation on my part, but my guess is that
with the advent of computerized manufacturing and records keeping,
many more manufactured parts are routinely trackable by mfring
location, date, and lot than was the case when the regulations
were written.

Now let's take the pending Superior air parts piston pin AD which
was pending a few years back when we bought our plane. Per engine
log, the relevant part had been installed in my plane during engine
overhaul 7 years ago. But for various reasons, I had my doubts.

...
Here's the punch line: when one of the cylinders was pulled due to
a valve problem, *the piston pin which came out was made by an entirely
different manufacturer*.


Once bitten by such a lack of records, an aircraft owner soon learns
to obtain copies of repair records AT THE TIME OF INSTALLATION, and
files them with the aircraft log books. The IA is required by FAA to
document all the parts used.


Um, Larry: either you didn't read the post you're responding
to very carefully, or you totally missed the point.

The parts used were documented in the logs. There were copies
of some repair records

The documentation was incorrect. It reflected the installation
of a part which was not, in fact, installed.

If you (or the previous owner of your airplane) had kept a record of
the parts installed, it would have been possible for you to KNOW if
they were among those that were recalled. I fail to see how your
failure to keep a copy of the records reflects poorly on the FAA
mandated record keeping practices.


Hello, Larry: where did you get this notion that "failure to keep
a copy of the records" was the issue here?

The point is, the FAA paper trail doesn't do a thing to improve
the quality of the work or to prevent simple human error, such
as logging piston pins from Mfr A as being installed while in
fact reaching into the parts box for Mfr B.

Will you 'get it' this time?

Sydney
 




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