GWB and the Air Guard

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..

..

Excuse me son, but ANG units deployed regularly to SEA throughout the
conflict. In fact, at the time that GWB entered Guard service, there
were F-102 units deployed operationally in Vietnam and Thailand.
Several F-102s were lost during the war. Other ANG units experience
combat (and losses) in other aircraft types.

I don't think anyone disputes that. But how many were there?
CNN today (feel free to correct this) said that 8,000 National
guardsmen served in Vietnam in total. How many Americans in
total served there? How many National guardsmen during that
time did NOT go to Vietnam.

It remains a fact that a man who was 1-A and had a low lottery
number was a lot less likely to go to Vietnam if he joined the
Guard than if he didn't, unless he could get CO status.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

It remains a fact that a man who was 1-A and had a low lottery
number was a lot less likely to go to Vietnam if he joined the
Guard than if he didn't, unless he could get CO status.


Yup. And what's wrong with that?

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
Ed Rasimus wrote in message
. ..

..

Excuse me son, but ANG units deployed regularly to SEA throughout the
conflict. In fact, at the time that GWB entered Guard service, there
were F-102 units deployed operationally in Vietnam and Thailand.
Several F-102s were lost during the war. Other ANG units experience
combat (and losses) in other aircraft types.

I don't think anyone disputes that. But how many were there?
CNN today (feel free to correct this) said that 8,000 National
guardsmen served in Vietnam in total. How many Americans in
total served there? How many National guardsmen during that
time did NOT go to Vietnam.

I'd guess CNN is (again) wrong when it comes to things military. The total
number of Guardsmen mobilized was about twenty-three thousand (not including
previous and later volunteers for programs like Palace Alert), and the ARNG
alone sent over seven thousand personnel to Vietnam, either in units or as
individual fillers. I am not sure what the total manpower was for the ANG,
but with four ANG fighter squadrons (and their attendant support units from
their peacetime groups) in-country, and providing the bulk of the pilots for
another active component F-100 unit, we can safely assume it was well over
one thousand personnel. Not including the various Palace Alert personnel
rotations. And not including the numerous ANG/USAFR transport sorties into
the country.

Why do you focus on the issue of how many Guardsmen were mobilized or
deployed? The fact is that Guardsmen did serve in the conflict, from both
the air and ground sides. Folks like Bush had no say as to whether their
unit would be activated and deployed, or for that matter what kind of
aircraft their unit would fly or what its mission was. Is the isssue you are
concerned with relative danger? If so, I'd encourage you to tally up the
total number of US personnel who served in-country, or flew missions into
Vietnam from the immediate surroundings, throughout the conflict, and
balance that against the number of KIA. Then take a gander at the number of
fatalities sustained by single engine high performance jet pilots during
training/non-combat operations versus the number of such pilots, and tell us
which is higher. Based upon the comments from COL Campenni's letter to the
editor, I would not be surprised if the latter was just as dangerous as the
former when viewed against their respective total populations.


It remains a fact that a man who was 1-A and had a low lottery
number was a lot less likely to go to Vietnam if he joined the
Guard than if he didn't, unless he could get CO status.

After 1969 that was not necessarily true, courtesy of the Vietnamization
policy. I believe the ground force drawdown started really rolling in 1970,
and by the time of the NVA's '72 Easter Offensive the US ground presence was
pretty darned small.

Brooks


--

FF

"Lawrence Dillard" wrote in message ...
"JD" wrote in message
news:nPQWb.15337$jk2.51376@attbi_s53...
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
SNIP

Published February 11, 2004

'Bush and I were lieutenants'
George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter
Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to
1971.
SNIP

Not quite; as the Colonel relates below, he "stayed the course" of the
Guard's transition, whereas GWB did not.

It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and
Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping
his
military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard
during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air
National Guardsmen are finding out today.

With respect, the ANGs of that time mostly bore no resemblance to today's
ANG's, especially in terms of preparation, and in integration with active
service components; I find it a bit disingenuous of GWB to try to link his
service in an air-defense cadre, which was highly unlikely to be called to
serve in Viet Nam, with those men and women who have served in the Guards in
the years since the ending of the Cold War.

Nope, Sorry. That's completely incorrect.
Air National Guard Fighter-Interceptor Squadrons not only had to
train to the same standards of Combat Readines as their Regular
Air Force counterparts, they had also, since 1954, been standing
the same Zulu Alert commitments aas the regulars as well. They
were an integral part of Air Defence Command's (ADTAC, later on)
force structure. Since the early 1960s, in fact, with the drawdown
in Regular Air Force Air Defence assets, they had been the majority
of the full-time Air Defences of the Continental U.S.. Essentially,
the Air Guard Fighter Interceptor Squadrons were, since 1954,
already called up for Federal Service, acting under Air FOrce orders,
and integrated into the Air Force command structure.
And they didn't take a back seat to anybody. Air Guard units
consistantly won or placed highly in their categories at the
William Tell Fighter Weapons Competitions.

SNIP - Much stuff unrealted.
During the Colonel's tenure in the Guard, there was a collective sea-change
in the ambit of responsibilities and in the seriousness of its preparation
and readiness for active service.

That's also certainly not the case. All you have to do is look at
the record:
During the Berlin Crisis of 1961, many National Guard units were
called up. Withing 2 weeks of callup, an Air Guard Tactical Fighter
Wing, with a combat element of 3 Tactical Fighter Squadrons of F-86Hs
re-opened Phalsbourg AB, France.
3 more Tactical Fighter Squadrons of F-84Fs operated from the
re-activated Chaumont AB, Toul-Rosieres AB, and Chambley AB.
A Tactical Recon Squadron flying F-84Fs deplowed to Dreux AB.
2 Air Guard FIghter Interceptor Squadrons, flying F-104As,
deployed to Ramstein AB. A further FIS, also with the F-104A,
deployed to Moron AB, Spain. The F-84Fs sat Victor Alert, which
is runway alert with pilots in the cockpits, and nuclear weapons
loaded.

Stateside, 3 Tactical Fighter Wings, (3 Squadrons each), and
a Tactical Reconnaisance Wing were activated, as well as
8 Heavy Air Transport Squadrons, which flew global airlift
missions from their home bases. All of these units were
activated for more than 1 year.

Note that during the Cuban Misssile Crisis, no Air Guard
Fighter-Interceptor units were called up. They didn't have
to be - they were already on alert.

After the Cuban Missile Crisis, noting the shortfall of
the Military Air Transport Service's ability to meet its
commitments, Air Guard Air Transport Squadrons (Military
Airlift Squadrons after Jan 1966, when MAC was formed)
volunteered to fly as part of the regular MAC rotation.
This usually meant hauling stuff to Viet Nam or Thailand.
(In fact, the first Air Rescue Service helicopters to deploy
to Southest Asia went out on Air Guard C-97s).

Air Guard transport units also provided aircraft and crews to
various Non-Governmental Organizations (International Red Cross,
World Church Aid, etc.) flying humanitarian flights into the trouble
spots in Africa and Asia, such as Biafra.

Air guard units participated in the Dominican Republic airdrops
in 1965.

During the Pueblo Crisis of 1968, Air Guard units were also
called up. Tactical Fighter units flying F-100s deplowed to
Viet Nam and Korea, and a Tactical Reconnaisance Wing with
RF-101s deployed to Japan. Palace Guard, which placed
Air Guard pilots in active units worldwide has already been
mentioned.

Not much of a "Sea Change" there, at least for the
Air National Guard.

--
Pete Stickney

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:04:28 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

During that entire time,
you are on full time active duty and every time you kick the tires and
light the fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it
can kill you--all by itself without help from an enemy.

Nicely said. May I quote it?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

It remains a fact that a man who was 1-A and had a low lottery
number was a lot less likely to go to Vietnam if he joined the
Guard than if he didn't, unless he could get CO status.

Or went to law school

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On 13 Feb 2004 11:44:10 -0800, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..

..

Excuse me son, but ANG units deployed regularly to SEA throughout the
conflict. In fact, at the time that GWB entered Guard service, there
were F-102 units deployed operationally in Vietnam and Thailand.
Several F-102s were lost during the war. Other ANG units experience
combat (and losses) in other aircraft types.

I don't think anyone disputes that. But how many were there?
CNN today (feel free to correct this) said that 8,000 National
guardsmen served in Vietnam in total. How many Americans in
total served there? How many National guardsmen during that
time did NOT go to Vietnam.

I don't have a number to refute that, but I'm fairly confident that
the number of guardsmen over the ten years of conflict that served in
Vietnam would greatly exceed 8,000.

One must also make very clear distinctions between AirNG and ArmyNG.
While the Army NG became almost notorious during the conflict, the
AirNG was flying a lot of airplanes in a lot of missions and
maintaining operational readiness.

How many did NOT go? How many Americans did NOT go? How many men did
NOT go? How many members of Congress did NOT go? What has that got to
do with anything?

It remains a fact that a man who was 1-A and had a low lottery
number was a lot less likely to go to Vietnam if he joined the
Guard than if he didn't, unless he could get CO status.

If a man was 1-A with a low lottery number he didn't need to join the
Guard. If a man were in college, he didn't go. If he were married, he
didn't go. If he did drugs and admitted it, he didn't go.

Fact is, it isn't cowardice or dodging to take a commission in the
ANG, go to UPT, fly single-seat, single engine fighters for several
years if you don't have to. It's a pretty commendable act.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:46:15 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:04:28 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

During that entire time,
you are on full time active duty and every time you kick the tires and
light the fire in a single-engine, single-seat Century Series jet, it
can kill you--all by itself without help from an enemy.

Nicely said. May I quote it?

Absolutely! It's one of my favorite memories of a life well lived.
Walking away from the "big iron", turning back at the beast and
thinking, "she coulda killed me." It's a damn good feeling.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
Mike Marron wrote in message
. ..

But I gotta say, this whole business regarding GWB's Air Guard records
misses the whole point with regards to him vs. Kerry. Dubya gets my
vote in November because unlike Kerry, Dubya plans on finishing what
the cowardly terrorists started on 9/11. And if that means cleaning up
the cesspool that is the entire Middle East region. then so be it.

Invading Afghanistan, the nation that harbored more Al Queda members
incljuding bin Laden, than any other was a good start.

Invading Iraq, the nation that harbored fewer than any other Arab
nation, perhaps NONE, had nothing to do with the attacks of Sept 11,
2001. Indeed, the evidence is that those attacks delayed the war
with Iraq by a year.


Hmm

At least 2 terrorist groups were based in Iraq and had active
support from the Iraqi government

Abu Nidal ran one and the other was Ansar Al Islam believed
to be associated with Al Qaeda

It may be that these groups didnt have an active part in the
events of Sept 11 but they certainly qualify as terrorist groups.

Keith

Hi Gang

Here's a list of F-100 Super Sabre-equipped Air National Guard units that
were activated and served overseas in Viet Nam. Two other Super
Sabre-equipped A.N.G. units served in Korea as well. While two more were
called to active duty to serve in CONUS to cover for active duty units that
were deployed to Southeast Asia.

120th TFS
*********
Home Base - Buckley Denver, Colorado
Activated in January 1968
Overseas Assignment - Phan Rang Air Base, Republic of Viet Nam
Personnel Deployed - 900 personnel
Deactivation Date - 30th of April 1969
*** Note: The 120th TFS entered combat on the 5th of May 1968, just two
days after its arrival in country. It completed its 1,000 mission fifty-one
days later.

174th TFS
*********
Home Base - Sioux City, Iowa
Activated in January 1968
Overseas Assignment - Phu Cat Air Base, Republic of Viet Nam
Personnel Deployed - 853 personnel
Deactivation Date - 28th of May 1969

188th TFS
*********
Home Base - Albuquerque, New Mexico
Activated - January 1968
Overseas Assignment - Tuy Hoa Air Base, Republic of Viet Nam
Personnel Deployed - 831 personnel
Deactivation Date - 4th of June 1969

136th TFS
*********
Home Base - Niagara Falls, New York
Activated in January 1968
Overseas Assignment - Tuy Hoa Air Base, Republic of Viet Nam
Personnel Deployed - 811 personnel
Deactivation Date - 11th of June 1969

** Pilots from these four squadrons flew 24, 124 sorties and 38, 614 combat
hours. If you include the 355th Tactical Fighter Squadron whose ranks were
predominately personnel of the Air National Guard, then the above totals
rise to approximately 30,000 sorties and 50,000 combat hours. Air National
Guard losses included 14 aircraft, 7 pilots and 1 intelligence officer
serving as an observer.

In 1973, Air Force Chief of Staff, General George S. Brown made this quote
when talking of the A.N.G. squadrons in Viet Nam.

"I had.five F-100 Air Nation Guard squadrons.These were the five best in the
field. The aircrews were a little older, but they were more experienced,
and the maintenance people were also more experienced than the regular
units. They had done the same work on the same weapon systems for years,
and they had [personnel] stability that a regular unit doesn't have."


Cheers.Chris