Knee Jerks

Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Why is it everytime someone posts an accident, there are those who
quickly make a decision or pronouncement that it was stupid, or the
pilot was a moron, or, etc, etc, and never have a clue as to the real
happenings?
Why does it take well trained professional crash investigators to do a
full investigation that may last several weeks, months, years, to
determine what happened when they could just take a quick look here and
see what the "experts" have to say?
There have been several crashes in recent days which is disturbing as
hell to me and they have been well publicized. In nearly all of these
crashes, there have been eye witnesses who breathlessly describe what
they saw, or THINK they saw and the media laps it up as if it were
gospel. Often the witness can't tell the difference in a Cessna and a
Piper or a JetRanger. Then, to make matters worse, there are those
amatuers, and a few more pros, who make immediate pronouncements as to
what happened and who is to blame.
I have been guilty of making statements in the past that turned out to
be only partly right because I didn't have all the facts. In 50 years
of flying I've learned that if you aren't in the airplane or ar not
doing the flying, or are not looking right at the action with a
professional eye, why make a fool of yourself with knee jerk
statements?
Dudley, if you are still here, what do you think? You've been around
long enough and have been to enough crashes to have some ideas on the
subject.
Rocky


Those of us like you and me and others like us who have been in the
professional end of the community for any length of time usually tend to shy
heavily away from the accident speculation business, as we know from actual
experience how often the cause of an accident turns out to be something
other than the obvious.
Dudley Henriques

And, fortunately, those of you who have been in the professional end of
the community also abstain from posting in this ng every accident that
you hear about. And for that many of us are grateful!

Unfortunately, the amateurs likely will keep posting accidents and the
amateur commentators will keep speculating...

Matt

Arketip wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

buttman wrote:

is crashing not a part of piloting?



Not if you are a good pilot.


Matt



So, you are saying that all the pilots that had a crash are bad pilots?

Since the topic here is piloting, I'm ruling out aircraft problems as
that isn't a piloting issue. So, yes, in this context.

Matt

wrote:
Why is it everytime someone posts an accident, there are those who
quickly make a decision or pronouncement that it was stupid, or the
pilot was a moron, or, etc, etc, and never have a clue as to the real
happenings?

Ever been in a sports bar during the "big" game or race?

I'm with ya' all the way.

Matt Whiting wrote:


Since the topic here is piloting, I'm ruling out aircraft problems as
that isn't a piloting issue.

It depends on the aircraft problem.

Some problems are plenty recoverable, even by a student. Others are
beyond superhuman flying skills.

There are accidents - a crank breaks on an otherwise perfectly
functioning engine - a microburst downdraft on short final in otherwise
clear air - a bird impact that blinds the pilot - icing encounters that
were not forecast - the vacuum pump goes bad - and so on... However,
the vast majority of "accidents" - 98% -are not accidental, they are
caused... There is a chain of events that leads up to the crash that
would have been prevented, could have been prevented, and should have
been prevented, had the pilot done his job before leaving the ground...
Examples:
Other than a fuel line breaking in flight there is no excuse for
running out of fuel - none - zero - nada... A pilot who runs out of
fuel should lose his certificate imediately and permanently.. He is not
fit to pilot an aircraft...
CFIT no exuse - none - zero - nada....
Busting a TFR - ADIZ, no excuse - none - zero - nada (there is also no
excuse for the TFR's, but that is another rant) They are published...
They don't move, they don't hide behind a cloud... You are required by
regulatory law to review restricted and prohibited airspace along your
route of flight before leaving the ground... There is no excuse...

Now, how about other stuff... Such as running off the runway in a
cross wind... An accident? Nope... Pilot error, pure and simple... If
the pilot did his job he would know what the maximum crosswind the
airplane can handle is, and he would have set a maximum crosswind that
HE is prepared to handle... Should be right on his check list - e.g. 8
KT crosswind limit... Check the AWOS or ATIS and if it exceeds the
limit, use another runway or another airport...
Landing downwind and running off the end... doh!!!! Need we say
more...
Hitting the ground on an instrument approach (recent)... Pure pilot
error... Either set the altimeter wrong, or went below minimums...
Snuff one pilot...
VFR into IMC (well, let's just go awhile and take a look, it should
get better) uhuh, sure it will with an area forecast for lowering
ceilings!
Giving ATC your position from the airport 180 degrees wrong and
altitude off by 2000 feet... (KJAX last year - hysterical, you should
have heard it)... Finally admitted he had a new GPS and wasn't sure how
to read it... (You should have heard the disgust in the controllers
voice after he had to issue warnings to all aircraft in the area
because this bozo did not know where he was (only off by 20 miles and
2000 feet)...
Going to a dawn patrol last year, the V tail Bonanza last year that
passed over top of me on downwind at least 2000 feet higher and
announced he was on downwind... Then proceeded to angle left about 30
degrees unannounced (not a base turn), then make a hard 150 degree
turn and announce he was short final (I was on base by then, and I had
announced) while he was 3 miles out and still high... At this point I
began to believe that this dip wad would run into me from behind if
given the chance so I elected to make a right turn and continue
downwind a bit, announcing to the heavy inbound traffic my intentions
and position every ten seconds... I let him pass me close on the left
and then completed my pattern, with a conga line of planes following
me... On the ground one of the guys came over to me and said he was
the plane behind me during landing and had just heard this bozo in the
food line ranting about the 'idiot' that cut him off, and did I want to
do anything about it as he would back up my story... I declined to make
an issue of it and went on my way...

All of us want to believe the best of our fellow pilots... But you only
have to talk to your FSDO inspector for a bit to see how tired he is of
hearing endless excuses for what was the pilot's responsibility to
prevent in the first place...

denny

What's important (and sometimes forgotten) is to be sensitive to the
situation,
as some people are suffering through a real tragedy at that moment. If
some
family member were to browse to an aviation group looking for answers,
only to
read that the pilot must have been an idiot . . .

Sadly, that's a product of the anonymity of Usenet (for many), and the
general decline in public decorum.

Across society, manners have become uncommon.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I take strong exception to this reasoning, which is not supported by real
world experience or data. All of us are imperfect, and all of us walk,
drive and fly imperfectly, all the time. The same mistake, made by a
thousand people, will bring a thousand results, by no means equal.

Tragic accidents have been caused by great pilots - great by any measure
we can concieve (and pilots' performance is measured on a continual
basis). If we could conceive an infallible test, which would determine
which of us is immune to imperfections, we would all lose our
certificates, and no more planes would fly.

You argument betrays a lack of experience, or humility, or both. I am not
a religious person, but I would recommend to you the book of
Ecclesiastes:

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor
the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches
to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and
chance happeneth to them all.

GF





In article . com,
says...


There are accidents - a crank breaks on an otherwise perfectly
functioning engine - a microburst downdraft on short final in otherwise
clear air - a bird impact that blinds the pilot - icing encounters that
were not forecast - the vacuum pump goes bad - and so on... However,
the vast majority of "accidents" - 98% -are not accidental, they are
caused... There is a chain of events that leads up to the crash that
would have been prevented, could have been prevented, and should have
been prevented, had the pilot done his job before leaving the ground...
Examples:
Other than a fuel line breaking in flight there is no excuse for
running out of fuel - none - zero - nada... A pilot who runs out of
fuel should lose his certificate imediately and permanently.. He is not
fit to pilot an aircraft...
CFIT no exuse - none - zero - nada....
Busting a TFR - ADIZ, no excuse - none - zero - nada (there is also no
excuse for the TFR's, but that is another rant) They are published...
They don't move, they don't hide behind a cloud... You are required by
regulatory law to review restricted and prohibited airspace along your
route of flight before leaving the ground... There is no excuse...

Now, how about other stuff... Such as running off the runway in a
cross wind... An accident? Nope... Pilot error, pure and simple... If
the pilot did his job he would know what the maximum crosswind the
airplane can handle is, and he would have set a maximum crosswind that
HE is prepared to handle... Should be right on his check list - e.g. 8
KT crosswind limit... Check the AWOS or ATIS and if it exceeds the
limit, use another runway or another airport...
Landing downwind and running off the end... doh!!!! Need we say
more...
Hitting the ground on an instrument approach (recent)... Pure pilot
error... Either set the altimeter wrong, or went below minimums...
Snuff one pilot...
VFR into IMC (well, let's just go awhile and take a look, it should
get better) uhuh, sure it will with an area forecast for lowering
ceilings!
Giving ATC your position from the airport 180 degrees wrong and
altitude off by 2000 feet... (KJAX last year - hysterical, you should
have heard it)... Finally admitted he had a new GPS and wasn't sure how
to read it... (You should have heard the disgust in the controllers
voice after he had to issue warnings to all aircraft in the area
because this bozo did not know where he was (only off by 20 miles and
2000 feet)...
Going to a dawn patrol last year, the V tail Bonanza last year that
passed over top of me on downwind at least 2000 feet higher and
announced he was on downwind... Then proceeded to angle left about 30
degrees unannounced (not a base turn), then make a hard 150 degree
turn and announce he was short final (I was on base by then, and I had
announced) while he was 3 miles out and still high... At this point I
began to believe that this dip wad would run into me from behind if
given the chance so I elected to make a right turn and continue
downwind a bit, announcing to the heavy inbound traffic my intentions
and position every ten seconds... I let him pass me close on the left
and then completed my pattern, with a conga line of planes following
me... On the ground one of the guys came over to me and said he was
the plane behind me during landing and had just heard this bozo in the
food line ranting about the 'idiot' that cut him off, and did I want to
do anything about it as he would back up my story... I declined to make
an issue of it and went on my way...

All of us want to believe the best of our fellow pilots... But you only
have to talk to your FSDO inspector for a bit to see how tired he is of
hearing endless excuses for what was the pilot's responsibility to
prevent in the first place...

denny

by "Peter R." Feb 13, 2006 at 09:14 PM

I concluded that pilots, at least those whom I encountered locally, who
were too quick to label an accident pilot were either overcompensating
for
their own aviation insecurities/inabilities or just had an overly large
ego.

I talked to my pilot friend about the rash of crashes the previous weekend
(before the California Rash). He generally believes if the plane is
well-maintained, and if the pilot is diligent and doesn't push minimums,
the risk is minimal.

I asked him about the seemingly obligatory post- crash commentary ("He was
such a good pilot." or "He was a hero for avoiding the
house/school/shopping center"), and asked if he thought the dead pilots
might have the same opinions.

He obviously considered this, but still seemed to think a crash was pretty
much beyond the realm of possibility in his case. I think his attitude
(Denial: Can't happen to me. I'm careful and fly a relatively new, well
maintained plane) is a psychological defense mechanism to disregard the
risk.

It seems to me that the risk IS minimal for the well trained pilot who
doesn't get too comfortable, but risk does exist and even a proficient
pilot who does everything right might crash under a combination of
problems and/or errors.

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Why is it everytime someone posts an accident, there are those who
quickly make a decision or pronouncement that it was stupid, or the
pilot was a moron, or, etc, etc, and never have a clue as to the real
happenings?
Why does it take well trained professional crash investigators to do
a full investigation that may last several weeks, months, years, to
determine what happened when they could just take a quick look here
and see what the "experts" have to say?
There have been several crashes in recent days which is disturbing as
hell to me and they have been well publicized. In nearly all of these
crashes, there have been eye witnesses who breathlessly describe what
they saw, or THINK they saw and the media laps it up as if it were
gospel. Often the witness can't tell the difference in a Cessna and a
Piper or a JetRanger. Then, to make matters worse, there are those
amatuers, and a few more pros, who make immediate pronouncements as
to what happened and who is to blame.
I have been guilty of making statements in the past that turned out
to be only partly right because I didn't have all the facts. In 50
years of flying I've learned that if you aren't in the airplane or ar
not doing the flying, or are not looking right at the action with a
professional eye, why make a fool of yourself with knee jerk
statements?
Dudley, if you are still here, what do you think? You've been around
long enough and have been to enough crashes to have some ideas on the
subject.
Rocky


Those of us like you and me and others like us who have been in the
professional end of the community for any length of time usually tend
to shy heavily away from the accident speculation business, as we
know from actual experience how often the cause of an accident turns
out to be something other than the obvious.
Dudley Henriques

And, fortunately, those of you who have been in the professional end
of the community also abstain from posting in this ng every accident
that you hear about. And for that many of us are grateful!

Unfortunately, the amateurs likely will keep posting accidents and the
amateur commentators will keep speculating...

Matt

So we should not discuss this??? I'm a student pilot, but I find the
speculation, discussion of accidents very productive...

No, we should not instantly label every pilot an idiot, but how many
lives can one post and discussion here about an alleged "idiot" save??

How many pilots who read about a few guys with dry tanks who bought it,
might be a bit more likely to divert for fuel rather than "push it"....
just one example....

As far as I'm concerned, speculate away! (with reasonable respect....)
--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

by Matt Whiting Feb 14, 2006 at 12:04 PM


And, fortunately, those of you who have been in the professional end of
the community also abstain from posting in this ng every accident that
you hear about. And for that many of us are grateful!

For goodness sakes, a plane crash is NEWS! Even if you don't like it.
Maybe just a blurb if its a minor crash and no one gets killed, maybe a
longer story if people watch an idiot buzzing houses and then crashes into
one, setting it ablaze.

On the front page of today's New York Times, you will see an article
entitled "No End to Questions on Cheney Hunting Incident." See?

Unfortunately, the amateurs likely will keep posting accidents and the
amateur commentators will keep speculating...

Matt