Short Wings Gliders

Martin

Tnx for info. Understand all the mods out lined. We flew out of the
box and some were faster than others (

Fly safe

Big John

************************************************** **************

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:13:37 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:07:59 -0600, Tech Support wrote:

Martin

Had a couple of Nelsons. Good engines. Flew in RC racers. Only Cyclone's
(note spelling) I had were pre WWII gas engines, with ignition, and
Class C size in those days.

No, that's a very different engine. See:
http://www.gregorie.org/freeflight/f.../cyclon06.html

for more about the Cyclon 06. They use Nelson plugs and are very sweet
engines.

Why did a lot of model flyers get into gliders as they got older?

A good question. My club has quite a lot of modellers in it, many still
active on the modelling scene. I flew a bit of CL and single channel RC
when I was a kid, but discovered the competition free flight scene at
University around 1970 and never looked back. I flew mostly towline
glider (A/2, F1A) and a bit of small power (1/2A, then F1J). I've always
built my own models and designed my F1As and F1Js. I got a bit less
interested in model flying with the rise of bought models and this,
combined with my first ride in glass (an ASK-21) in 1999 kick-started my
move into soaring. I joined my present club and started learning to fly
in 2000.

Gettin back to the main subject of this thread. The entry lists for the UK
Nationals have just been published, and the most popular class by far is
the 18m Class, followed by the 15m (flaps allowed) Class. There is no
interest whatsoever in the World Cass, although at least one PW5 will be
entered in a Regional Competition.

Does this tell you anything?

Derek Copeland

This ought to get the juices flowing- Don't shoot the messenger.

So far, no one has mentioned the 800 pound gorilla in the room:

In all classes but sports:
$50,000 absolute minimum for a ship that ?might? be
competitive.
$50,000 minimum for a motor home. (USA)
$1000 minimum for a week at a regionals
1 week off per contest, minimum.

In sports class:
$25,000 average for a ship
$200 tent
$1000 minimum for a week at a regionals
1 week off per contest, minimum.
Sleep in your tent listening to the air conditioners running in all
the motor homes.

Who attends these competitions? Do you really wonder why Joe
average income does not come out to play with his PW5? His
significant other would give him AIDS (aviation induced divorce)
for trashing the family finances.

I see racers as rich guys with time and middle class guys who
are willing to make huge sacrifices and/or have extraordinary
support from their spouses. The average middle class guy with
a wife and family just can't do it. That's just the way it is.

Perhaps this is why the 1-26ers are still going strong after 40
years. They don't have to work on Wall Street to have fun.

So - back to the subject of the thread: Was the World Class a
good idea? As a venue for a new competitive class, probably
not. The people who buy them don't have the opportunity to
compete in the manner competitions are held presently. All the
PW5's, Russia's, Juniors and L33's that have been sold are being
flown by someone though. Their owners think they are great
little ships. They are affordable and relatively new as compared
to old German glass with scabby gel coats costing the same or
more $$$. The sport benefits from them, even if the class
competition never takes off.

OTHER OPINIONS WILL VARY... and yes it is a very long winter.

Brian

At 09:45 07 February 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
Gettin back to the main subject of this thread. The entry lists
for the UK
Nationals have just been published, and the most popular class
by far is
the 18m Class, followed by the 15m (flaps allowed) Class.
There is no
interest whatsoever in the World Cass, although at least one
PW5 will be
entered in a Regional Competition.

Does this tell you anything?

Derek Copeland

In Europe the real cheap *World Class* is the Club Class. This is a
handicapped Class for essentially Standard Class and 15m Class gliders
that are no longer competitive in their original unhandicapped classes, so
can be bought quite cheaply compared with a new PW5, and still give much
better performance for general non-competition flying.

If you can't afford all of a glider, even a cheap one, then why not form
a small syndicate with a few of your gliding friends.

If you really want a new one design 'World Class' glider I can't see
that adding an extra 0.75 metres to each wing to bring the span up to 15m
is going to add all that much extra cost, but will give a big improvement
in performance. As in sailing one design classes, you would have to have a
series of measurements that would have to be complied with. To keep it
cheap I would suggest a wing section that is thick enough to allow it to
be made from low cost materials. Something like the LS4 design would be a
good starting point.

Derek Copeland


At 15:30 07 February 2009, Brian Bange wrote:
This ought to get the juices flowing- Don't shoot the messenger.

So far, no one has mentioned the 800 pound gorilla in the room:

In all classes but sports:
$50,000 absolute minimum for a ship that ?might? be
competitive.
$50,000 minimum for a motor home. (USA)
$1000 minimum for a week at a regionals
1 week off per contest, minimum.

In sports class:
$25,000 average for a ship
$200 tent
$1000 minimum for a week at a regionals
1 week off per contest, minimum.
Sleep in your tent listening to the air conditioners running in all
the motor homes.

Who attends these competitions? Do you really wonder why Joe
average income does not come out to play with his PW5? His
significant other would give him AIDS (aviation induced divorce)
for trashing the family finances.

I see racers as rich guys with time and middle class guys who
are willing to make huge sacrifices and/or have extraordinary
support from their spouses. The average middle class guy with
a wife and family just can't do it. That's just the way it is.

Perhaps this is why the 1-26ers are still going strong after 40
years. They don't have to work on Wall Street to have fun.

So - back to the subject of the thread: Was the World Class a
good idea? As a venue for a new competitive class, probably
not. The people who buy them don't have the opportunity to
compete in the manner competitions are held presently. All the
PW5's, Russia's, Juniors and L33's that have been sold are being
flown by someone though. Their owners think they are great
little ships. They are affordable and relatively new as compared
to old German glass with scabby gel coats costing the same or
more $$$. The sport benefits from them, even if the class
competition never takes off.

OTHER OPINIONS WILL VARY... and yes it is a very long winter.

Brian

At 09:45 07 February 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
Gettin back to the main subject of this thread. The entry lists
for the UK
Nationals have just been published, and the most popular class
by far is
the 18m Class, followed by the 15m (flaps allowed) Class.
There is no
interest whatsoever in the World Cass, although at least one
PW5 will be
entered in a Regional Competition.

Does this tell you anything?

Derek Copeland

On Feb 7, 9:15*am, Derek Copeland wrote:

If you really want a new one design 'World Class' glider I
can't see that adding an extra 0.75 metres to each wing
to bring the span up to 15m is going to add all that much
extra cost, but will give a big improvement in
performance...

Says the man with a 25-foot garage and 30-foot driveway...

On Feb 7, 7:03*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Feb 7, 9:15*am, Derek Copeland wrote:

If you really want a new one design 'World Class' glider I
can't see that adding an extra 0.75 metres to each wing
to bring the span up to 15m is going to add all that much
extra cost, but will give a big improvement in
performance...

Says the man with a 25-foot garage and 30-foot driveway...

hmmmm.......I see where this is going.................if you wanna
play, and you can afford to pay with some sweat equity, then let's
make somthing that an enthusiast can toss together in that foot print.

Brad

Four piece wing perhaps? 13.5m + 2 x 0.75m tips?

Derek Copeland


At 05:07 08 February 2009, Brad wrote:
On Feb 7, 7:03=A0pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Feb 7, 9:15=A0am, Derek Copeland wrote:

If you really want a new one design 'World Class' glider I
can't see that adding an extra 0.75 metres to each wing
to bring the span up to 15m is going to add all that much
extra cost, but will give a big improvement in
performance...

Says the man with a 25-foot garage and 30-foot driveway...

hmmmm.......I see where this is going.................if you wanna
play, and you can afford to pay with some sweat equity, then let's
make somthing that an enthusiast can toss together in that foot print.

Brad

On Jan 27, 7:09*pm, RRK wrote:
How many gliders with a wing span of 13.5 or less do you know? There
is a proposal of creating 13.5 class on IGC agenda on their *next
meeting in Laussane.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/fi...8_3_1_Proposal...

I snagged a gif image of a Russia AC-4 from a W&B sheet. Brought it in
to Photoshop and did a freetransform on the image. Basically I
stretched it out lengthwise until the shape became similar to what we
consider a sleek fuselage must look like.

I must say, it does look compelling...........now, can A.S. do the
same thing to their tooling??

I still think if these guys had done some better ID work they would
still be cranking them out.

Brad

Add the Celstar GA-1 11.0m (South Africa)

At 01:00 03 February 2009, Dan Silent wrote:
At 20:52 02 February 2009, wrote:
On Feb 1, 4:00=A0am, Dan Silent wrote:
At 03:09 28 January 2009, RRK wrote:

How many gliders with a wing span of 13.5 or less do you know?

1 Apis-13 13.3
2 BG135
3 Carbon Dragon 13.4
4 Cessna CG-2 11.0
5 Cherokee II 12.2
6 Duster 13.1 m 13.1
7 H101 Salto
8 L0 100
9 Monarch 12.8
10 Monerai S 11.0
11 MU xy
12 Pioneer II 13.0
13 PW-5 13.4
14 Russia
15 Schweizer 1-26 12.2
16 Silent 2 13.0
17 Silent 2 Targa 13.3
18 Silent Club 12.0
19 Slingaby Swallow
20 Sparrowhawk 11.0
21 SW-1 Swift
22 SZD-59 Acro 13.2
23 WindRose 12.7
24 Woodstock
25 Screamin' Weiner 11.0
26 Rigid Midget 11.6

possible names for the new class:

"US class"
"NON EUROPE class"
"20PCT class"
"DWARF class"
"WC class"
"TINS4WS class"

OTHER SUGGESTIONS???

How about
* the Grunau at 13.57 meters (OK shave 0.07 meters off if you must) or
* the Ka1 and Ka3 each at 10 meters or
* the Hütter 17 at 9.69 meters or
if you want to do have a helper in the back seat downloading the latest
info while you fly,
* the Schweizer SGU 2-22 at 13.11 meters.

It is interesting to note that the Grunau Baby was made in more numbers
than the total of all the gliders in the list below.

How about calling it the Maxi class?

David Smith wrote:
Add the Celstar GA-1 11.0m (South Africa)

At 01:00 03 February 2009, Dan Silent wrote:

At 20:52 02 February 2009, wrote:

On Feb 1, 4:00=A0am, Dan Silent wrote:

At 03:09 28 January 2009, RRK wrote:


How many gliders with a wing span of 13.5 or less do you know?

1 Apis-13 13.3
2 BG135
3 Carbon Dragon 13.4
4 Cessna CG-2 11.0
5 Cherokee II 12.2
6 Duster 13.1 m 13.1
7 H101 Salto
8 L0 100
9 Monarch 12.8
10 Monerai S 11.0
11 MU xy
12 Pioneer II 13.0
13 PW-5 13.4
14 Russia
15 Schweizer 1-26 12.2
16 Silent 2 13.0
17 Silent 2 Targa 13.3
18 Silent Club 12.0
19 Slingaby Swallow
20 Sparrowhawk 11.0
21 SW-1 Swift
22 SZD-59 Acro 13.2
23 WindRose 12.7
24 Woodstock
25 Screamin' Weiner 11.0
26 Rigid Midget 11.6

possible names for the new class:

"US class"
"NON EUROPE class"
"20PCT class"
"DWARF class"
"WC class"
"TINS4WS class"

OTHER SUGGESTIONS???