Rudder for final runway alignment (?)

Mxsmanic,

In these kinds of your posts, could you please spell out clearly that
you are talking about playing a flight simulator, not real flying? it
would save people a lot of time tailoring their answers.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message

If I try to use the rudder alone for a heading change in flight, the
aircraft just snaps back to its previous heading when I center the
rudder again.


Try it in a 172. You CAN turn with rudder only. It's not coordinated, but it
still turns.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:38:09 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

RK Henry writes:

Some argue that it's preferable to use the rudder in an instrument
approach for minor heading changes. In fact, when I took my instrument
rating check ride, the examiner chided me for rolling to minor heading
changes instead of just using the rudder, though he signed me off
anyway.

If I try to use the rudder alone for a heading change in flight, the
aircraft just snaps back to its previous heading when I center the
rudder again.

Is there the heading hold engaged on the autopilot? Does the airplane
tend to bank when you apply rudder? If not, this may be a modeling
error in your sim. I'm not aware of any real airplane that returns to
its exact original heading without intelligent intervention. Being
able to turn the airplane using only the rudder is usually inherent in
the airframe design. A simulator that doesn't model that behavior is
incomplete.

RK Henry

Steve Foley writes:

Try it in a 172. You CAN turn with rudder only. It's not coordinated, but it
still turns.

If I _hold_ the rudder, I do indeed enter a turn. But I've been
trying (perhaps incorrectly) to just apply it briefly just above the
runway in order to improve my alignment. It works, but only until I
release the rudder, at which point it snaps back. If I hold the
rudder long, the turn becomes more persistent, but then the aircraft
starts to roll, which is what I'm trying to avoid in the first place
when I'm only 30-50 feet above the runway.

I'll grant that I've been trying some truly reckless approaches that
would be unthinkable in real life, standing the aircraft on one wing a
few hundred feet from the threshold, coming in at a 45° angle, and
then trying to align. But I figure that if I can do that to any
extent, then more serious approaches should be all that much easier.
Obviously if I start ten miles out, it's not a problem to be right
down the centerline if the weather isn't too bad. These wild
maneuvers are the kinds of things you can do safely only in
simulation. Surprisingly, there aren't too many crashes, despite the
recklessness of it all.

Plus I get impatient waiting for the next airport to draw near. I've
found that Hawaii seems to have a ton of little airstrips that are
good for touch-and-go practice. Today I discovered that Heathrow and
London City Airport are rather conveniently placed for alternating
touch-and-go practice between them without too many wild approaches.

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RK Henry writes:

Is there the heading hold engaged on the autopilot?

No, these are with A/P shut off. The usual scenario is that I've
impatiently done a full circle after take-off and I'm trying to
scrunch back in on the same runway from a very short distance away
(half a mile or so, sometimes less). It helps me to get more landings
in over a short period. Especially in small aircraft, going 20-40 nm
to find another airport for another touch-and-go is very
time-consuming.

Does the airplane tend to bank when you apply rudder?

If I hold it, yes, it starts to bank. But holding it also turns the
aircraft too far, and I don't want to bank because I'm so close to the
ground. The aircraft starts to slip and slide and I come dangerously
close to the ground while still misaligned or too far from the
threshold.

If not, this may be a modeling error in your sim.

MSFS is pretty reliable on these points, especially with the
hyperrealistic Dreamfleet models. I tend to assume that any mistake
is mine, rather than the sim's.

I'm not aware of any real airplane that returns to
its exact original heading without intelligent intervention.

It's not exact, but if I push the rudder sharply and quickly, the
aircraft yaws 10-15 degrees, and if I immediately release it, it yaws
back in the opposite direction almost as if it were pulled, which I
don't understand. If I hold the rudder for more than a second or so,
the plane starts to bank.

Being able to turn the airplane using only the rudder is usually inherent in
the airframe design. A simulator that doesn't model that behavior is
incomplete.

I'm sure the simulator is modeling it correctly. It would be inherent
in the basic aerodynamics of the model, so if this didn't work,
nothing would work.

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Thomas Borchert writes:

In these kinds of your posts, could you please spell out clearly that
you are talking about playing a flight simulator, not real flying? it
would save people a lot of time tailoring their answers.

It's not necessary in most cases. Simulators, as their name implies,
behave like real aircraft for the most part, especially for all of the
more basic aspects of flying. While certain types of extremely
complex or aircraft-specific modeling are sometimes absent, all sims
tend to be very good indeed at all the normal flight maneuvers. Some
sims let you crank down the realism at your discretion, but the basic
calculations are there and are correct. Simulation isn't _that_
difficult.

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T o d d P a t t i s t writes:

In no wind conditions you should not use the rudder alone
for this. You can side slip (aka side-step) or turn-fly
straight-turn. If you are too low for those, then you
should go around.

Maybe my problem is just that I'm trying to land in situations that
would be far too hazardous in real life and would require that I go
around. Although it does seem that bush pilots can land anywhere at
any time (but the aircraft I'm using aren't the ones they'd use).

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
Maybe my problem is just that I'm trying to land in situations that
would be far too hazardous in real life and would require that I go
around. Although it does seem that bush pilots can land anywhere at
any time (but the aircraft I'm using aren't the ones they'd use).

I've been sittin back and watchin this thread for a while, and there has
been so much **** talked that I have LMAO!

Mrsmaniac, perhaps you should go and spend a few dollars on a real airplane
ride. Your local flying school would be happy to take your money, and for a
lot less than you would spend on a couple of "required every year upgrades",
you could actually experience it for yourself. If I add up what I've spent
on pc upgrades and software upgrades that were then required because my old
dos based software won't run anymore, or I can't read my 5 inch floppies, or
there's a new operating system that I need to get, and compared it to what
I've spent on flying lessons, there isn't much difference..... correction,
the difference is either looking at a bloody pc screen, or looking out into
the wild blue yonder!

You don't have to learn to fly in big aircraft like Cessna 150's but you
could learn just as well in something like a Gemini Thruster, where you have
to learn how to use your rudder pedals. Practice how to taxi up and down the
runway at the best speed the aircraft you are playing in will run with both
the tail up and the tail down. Spend 50 hours with a decent instructor that
can teach you about using your rudder and the rest of the controls, and how
to use your brain to interpret the other senses.

This is a student pilot newsgroup and I would not be the only one to
congratulate you, when you go for your first solo.

Hope this helps,
Peter

Have to agree- most of his posts would be more appropriate on a newgroup for
gamers. The flight models in most PC driven "simulators" are not
particularly reflective of the real plane. Unless you're in a full cockpit
multi screen model, it's still just a game. I did initial Baron training at
Flight Safety, and even though there's no motion, I found myself leaning,
clutching the yoke, and sweating during a VMC rollover.

In MS Flight Simulator something relatively slow and stable like a Baron
(which I fly) is not too bad, but the Extra model is terrible (the real one
is a lot quicker than the PC version in roll and pitch).

Regardless, the visceral feedback and visual cues from flying a real plane
are a lot different than sitting in a chair in front of a screen. For the
cost of a good computer, screen, and peripherals you could be more than half
way to having a real pilot's license.

However, questions related to flight sims on a PC are more appropriate on a
gaming newsgroup. If you have a dream of some day flying a real plane, then
go for it. Many of us had to scrimp, save, and come up with creative ways of
getting the resources together to get our certificates, and have never
looked back from the wonderful experience.

Bushy Pete writes:

If I add up what I've spent
on pc upgrades and software upgrades that were then required because my old
dos based software won't run anymore, or I can't read my 5 inch floppies, or
there's a new operating system that I need to get, and compared it to what
I've spent on flying lessons, there isn't much difference..... correction,
the difference is either looking at a bloody pc screen, or looking out into
the wild blue yonder!

Computers must be extraordinarily expensive where you live. A copy of
FS 2004 and a joystick can be had where I live for about 60 euro.

You don't have to learn to fly in big aircraft like Cessna 150's but you
could learn just as well in something like a Gemini Thruster, where you have
to learn how to use your rudder pedals.

Cessna makes big aircraft?

Practice how to taxi up and down the
runway at the best speed the aircraft you are playing in will run with both
the tail up and the tail down. Spend 50 hours with a decent instructor that
can teach you about using your rudder and the rest of the controls, and how
to use your brain to interpret the other senses.

How much does 50 hours of instruction cost? More than 60 euro?

This is a student pilot newsgroup and I would not be the only one to
congratulate you, when you go for your first solo.

Frankly, I don't think I could ever pass the exams (practical or
written), and I'm pretty sure I'd fail the physical as well. I only
just barely managed to get a driver's license, and that cost me 1000
euro.

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