Quick question about an incident which happend today

Newps wrote:

Sure, they got those from NY Center. Centers record their radar. Not
sure how long that data is kept.

So, after considering what you've written, I'd have to alter what I wrote
to:

I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to
preserve the RADAR "recording". It should have both aicraft,
showing that there are (at least) two.

In this new text, I changed all references to TRACON to Center.

- Andrew

Heck - if he had been talking to NY approach, it would have been legal for
him to fly through HPN airspace at 2800', assuming they didn't vector him
around!


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in
:



Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you
are absolutely forced to do so...

I disagree. If he *had* been talking to NY approach during this flight,
they would know for a fact that he didn't bust any airspace.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot
that would
not yield to the tongue.

Well something somewhere resembling it is...

http://www4.passur.com/hpn.html


Newps wrote in
news:kkL9c.27238$JO3.26681@attbi_s04:



Andrew Gideon wrote:



I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to preserve the
RADAR "recording". It should have both aicraft, showing that there
are (at least) two.



TRACON radar is not recorded.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:aNE9c.22897$gA5.296261@attbi_s03...
If there is a competition about dumb comments, yours will surely take the
gold medal.

Bob Gardner

uhhh gee, thanks...

Not at all ridiculous, CJ.... If it was controlled airspace, or special VFR
conditions, etc., and he had no choice except to communicate, that's one
thing... But, if he is not in controlled airspace and was just being Mr.
Nice Guy and asking for flight following, or other wise keeping his tail
number in the controller's mind, look what it got him - grief...

When I depart an airport vfr, as soon as I am clear of the B/C/whatever/
airspace, I inform the controller that I am returning to advisories and
squawking vfr...

Flight following, or a VFR flight plan, is not a good deal... First the
controller can't fly the airplane for you so why are you waiting on him to
tell you what to do?... Second, if some bozo busts through controlled
airspace nearby, the controller doesn't have the bozo's tail number but he
has yours, guess who comes to his mind... Third, the system is impersonal
and once accused (given you have only your word as proof that it wasn't you)
it will grind you up and spit you out the other end...

You are far, far, better off being just another anonymous blip on his scope
squawking 1200...
And, yes I advise you to change heading and altitude shortly after leaving
the controlled airspace...
I also advise you to clear the ground track on your GPS before each flight
so that YOU have a record of where you flew - and if there is controversy,
save that ground track......
And, I advise you to never tell departure your destination airport - simply
say, "November xyz is departing vfr to the southwest at 3500", then change
to west at 5500, etc., when clear of his airspace...
And no, I am not paranoid - I am a realist who has been watching the FAA for
six decades... Dealing with them when you don't have to, is like dealing
with Dirty Harry - "So tell me, do you feel lucky, Mr. Pilot?"...

denny

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Uhhh, don't have anything to share, Dan... Never had any kind of a dust up
with them, and I firmly intend to keep it that way - especially, now that
they are in their post 9/11 hang the GA *******s, mode...
However, some six decades of watching other poor *******s give up their
ticket has been enlightening...

First, I flew when talking to anyone on the radio was a special event...
And I managed to blunder my way around the country without their 'help' and
I still can... Second, ATC is of no use to a VFR flight, so putting yor
tail number in the front of their minds is a no win scenario for you - you
don't get an attaboy for not making an error, and you get hung if they even
suspect that was you who clipped their airspace...
Third, the airspace has become so complex, especially with TFR's popping up
all over the place every time some sports team decides to play, or some
promoter puts on an auto race, that your odds of breaking the "rules" is way
higher than you can calculate...

Example: The controller will not tell you that XYZ University is playing
that day he doesn't have a clue as you blithely fly overhead with vfr
flight following, but he will use your recorded radar track/tail-number to
hang you after the fact - so why in the heck, would you deliberately set
yourself up like that? It boggles my mind... Do you also sit on your seat
belt and pet rattlesnakes?

denny

"Dan Luke" wrote in I
must suppose you base that opinion on experience. Care to share it?

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Not at all ridiculous, CJ.... If it was controlled airspace, or special
VFR
conditions, etc., and he had no choice except to communicate, that's one
thing... But, if he is not in controlled airspace and was just being Mr.
Nice Guy and asking for flight following, or other wise keeping his tail
number in the controller's mind, look what it got him - grief...


It was controlled airspace, communications with ATC were not required, he
had not asked for flight following.



When I depart an airport vfr, as soon as I am clear of the B/C/whatever/
airspace, I inform the controller that I am returning to advisories and
squawking vfr...


How does one return to advisories?



Flight following, or a VFR flight plan, is not a good deal... First the
controller can't fly the airplane for you so why are you waiting on him to
tell you what to do?


VFR flight plans have nothing to do with ATC.



... Second, if some bozo busts through controlled
airspace nearby, the controller doesn't have the bozo's tail number but he
has yours, guess who comes to his mind...


If you're receiving flight following when some bozo busts some airspace the
controller knows it wasn't you.



Third, the system is impersonal and once accused (given you have
only your word as proof that it wasn't you)
it will grind you up and spit you out the other end...


The system can do that regardless what you do.



You are far, far, better off being just another anonymous blip on
his scope squawking 1200...
And, yes I advise you to change heading and altitude shortly after leaving
the controlled airspace...
I also advise you to clear the ground track on your GPS before each flight
so that YOU have a record of where you flew - and if there is controversy,
save that ground track......
And, I advise you to never tell departure your destination airport -
simply
say, "November xyz is departing vfr to the southwest at 3500", then
change
to west at 5500, etc., when clear of his airspace...
And no, I am not paranoid - I am a realist who has been watching the FAA
for
six decades... Dealing with them when you don't have to, is like dealing
with Dirty Harry - "So tell me, do you feel lucky, Mr. Pilot?"...


Whether you're paranoid or not cannot be determined from your messages in
these forums. What can be determined from them is that you don't know what
you're talking about.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Uhhh, don't have anything to share, Dan... Never had any kind of a dust
up
with them, and I firmly intend to keep it that way - especially, now that
they are in their post 9/11 hang the GA *******s, mode...
However, some six decades of watching other poor *******s give up their
ticket has been enlightening...

First, I flew when talking to anyone on the radio was a special event...
And I managed to blunder my way around the country without their 'help'
and
I still can... Second, ATC is of no use to a VFR flight, so putting yor
tail number in the front of their minds is a no win scenario for you - you
don't get an attaboy for not making an error, and you get hung if they
even
suspect that was you who clipped their airspace...
Third, the airspace has become so complex, especially with TFR's popping
up
all over the place every time some sports team decides to play, or some
promoter puts on an auto race, that your odds of breaking the "rules" is
way
higher than you can calculate...

Example: The controller will not tell you that XYZ University is playing
that day he doesn't have a clue as you blithely fly overhead with vfr
flight following, but he will use your recorded radar track/tail-number to
hang you after the fact - so why in the heck, would you deliberately set
yourself up like that? It boggles my mind... Do you also sit on your
seat
belt and pet rattlesnakes?


How is it you were able to fly so long and learn so little about aviation?

This idea that ATC guys are "out to hang you" or are "not your friend" is just
false in my experience. These guys at the other end of the radio are terrific
.. . . have saved my ass more than once, and I have even done photography for
some of them here in NY.

I don't know how it is where you are, Dennis . . . but here in NY, if you
conduct yourself like a pro, you are treated like one.

The guys and gals in the towers and Tracon ARE our friends when we're working.
They provide first class service.
JMO, worth no more nor less than my allotted .02.


www.Rosspilot.com

Rosspilot wrote:

The guys and gals in the towers and Tracon ARE our friends when we're
working. They provide first class service.
JMO, worth no more nor less than my allotted .02.

I was flying over EWR a couple of days ago. ATC was downright friendly to
all the aircraft in the air. The controller, the DC-10 pilot, and I all
expressed amazement that a DC-10 at 4000 would manage to overtake my
Skyhawk at 5000, for example.

I cancelled down south to do a little site-seeing before landing, and the
controller volunteered to stay with me in an advisories mode.

I suspect my wife believes now that IFR/FF is just an excuse for a party
line.

- Andrew