A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

K2 battery endurance



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old June 4th 20, 01:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,213
Default K2 battery endurance

I have one of THESE
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LWTHP2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
which I used on the C-180 (24v system) and on anything else in the
hangar (12v systems).* If it's been on the 180 and is set for 24 volts
and I connect it to a 12 volt battery, the lights flash wildly to tell
me there's a problem.* Then I simply set it for 12v with the push of a
button.

On 6/3/2020 2:12 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 6/3/2020 12:06 PM:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 9:12:00 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Richard Pfiffner wrote on 6/3/2020 5:35 AM:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 10:09:21 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Richard Pfiffner wrote on 6/2/2020 9:26 AM:
...


StarkPower had a series of batteries aimed at motorcycles that
they were
quite open about not having a BMS.* Unfortunately they're in
Chapter 7
now and the website is gone.

More commonly, some batteries with BMS don't have over and under
voltage
protection.* Richard Pfiffner one time was testing batteries,
and his
vendor shipped 24 volt chargers accidentally for 12 volt
batteries.* All
the white stuff leaked out of the battery.* Some electrical
genius on
R.A.S. (don't remember which one) declared that they really had
overvoltage protection, but 24 volts just wasn't enough to
trigger it.

One of our fellow Schleicher motorglider pilots had an LFP, left
the
transponder on, and ruined the battery.* A 15-20 AH battery
intended as
a starter battery can easily find it's way into other
applications.* You
may have read about the ASG 32 mi that got fried when the solar
controller malfunctioned, drained the battery, and got quite hot
when
charged from another charger.* Did it have a BMS? Doesn't really
matter.

Dave

The problem batteries were Bioenno Batteries.

Were they Bioennos with a BMS that protects against overvoltage?
For example, I
use the BLF-1220AS, which ....

"Includes built-in PCM (protection circuit module) which provides
internal cell
balancing and management, protection from overcurrent, undervoltage
(overdischarge), overvoltage and short circuiting, and has
integrated charging
circuitry "

I haven't tried applying 24 volts to it, but I'd expect it to
protect against 24
VDC being applied to it. I've just emailed Bioenno this question,
but have not
heard back.

Eric,

I don't know about the BMS.* All I know is Bioenno supplied the
batteries with a 24 volt charger. When the batteries were charged
they were destroyed.* Bioenno replaced the batteries and chargers
although it took a long time to get the replacements.

Richard

I emailed this question to Bioenno:

"Does the BLF-1220AS protect itself if a charger for a 24 volt
Bioenno is
connected to it?"

Their answer:

"The BLF-1220AS can only accept a charging voltage from 13.8VDC to
15.3VDC.* If
you exceed 15.3VDC, the BMS will trip and the battery shuts off.*
However, high
voltage should not be left attached continuously to the battery
which can cause
permanent damage to the BMS/cells.* If the voltage is less than
13.8VDC, the
battery will charge, but not be 100% charged.

-Kevin"

I don't consider 24 volts (or the likely charging voltage of 28
volts) to be a
"high voltage", but it sounds like leaving a 24 volt charger applied
to a 12 volt
Bioenno battery will damage the battery after a while. So, while the
battery does
protect itself in the short term, neither the battery nor the
charger indicate
that there is a problem. Since the battery can be hidden from view,
I think the
charger should be smart enough to indicate it's been connected to
the wrong
battery AND it should disconnect itself. The Bioenno charger does
neither,
unfortunately.

If you do connect the 24 volt charger to the 12 volt battery, the
LED indicator
(all it has) will show GREEN, indicating the battery is fully
charged, instead of
RED, your expectation to indicate it is charging. Too subtle, I think.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The battery does not "know" that it is connected to a 24V charger.
The battery itself should clamp the voltage to a value consistent
with it's state-of-charge. If a 24V charger is able to deliver
current at the relatively low voltage of the 12V battery, then
current will flow and the battery will absorb this current, charge,
and reach the BMS cutoff voltage at which time the overcharge
protection FET should open. The voltage across the battery terminals
will then be 24V but with no current flow since the FET is open. The
internal battery cell cluster will not "see" this high voltage but
portions of the BMS circuit will. This 24V "may" damage the BMS if it
is not rated for it. There may be some small leakage current through
the overcharge FET which may get through to the inner cell cluster
which, over a (very, very) long period of time, damage the cells.

Danny Brotto

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I want to the battery to have an LED indicator
that announces it has shut off the battery due to an overvoltage. And
definitely shut off - not clamp the voltage. It doesn't matter what is
supplying the high voltage.

I also want the 24 volt battery charger to shut off it's output if it
doesn't detect a 24 volt battery on it's output, and have an LED
indicator to show that's why it shut off. I very much do not want a 24
volt charger to attempt charging anything but a 24 volt battery.


--
Dan, 5J

Ads
  #42  
Old June 4th 20, 04:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 379
Default K2 battery endurance

On 6/2/20 11:09 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Richard Pfiffner wrote on 6/2/2020 9:26 AM:
...


StarkPower had a series of batteries aimed at motorcycles that they were
quite open about not having a BMS.* Unfortunately they're in Chapter 7
now and the website is gone.

More commonly, some batteries with BMS don't have over and under voltage
protection.* Richard Pfiffner one time was testing batteries, and his
vendor shipped 24 volt chargers accidentally for 12 volt batteries.* All
the white stuff leaked out of the battery.* Some electrical genius on
R.A.S. (don't remember which one) declared that they really had
overvoltage protection, but 24 volts just wasn't enough to trigger it.

One of our fellow Schleicher motorglider pilots had an LFP, left the
transponder on, and ruined the battery.* A 15-20 AH battery intended as
a starter battery can easily find it's way into other applications.* You
may have read about the ASG 32 mi that got fried when the solar
controller malfunctioned, drained the battery, and got quite hot when
charged from another charger.* Did it have a BMS?* Doesn't really
matter.

Dave


The problem batteries were Bioenno Batteries.


Were they Bioennos with a BMS that protects against overvoltage? For
example, I use the BLF-1220AS, which ....

"Includes built-in PCM (protection circuit module) which provides
internal cell balancing and management, protection from overcurrent,
undervoltage (overdischarge), overvoltage and short circuiting, and has
integrated charging circuitry "

I haven't tried applying 24 volts to it, but I'd expect it to protect
against 24 VDC being applied to it. I've just emailed Bioenno this
question, but have not heard back.


The glossy brochures say they have short-circuit protection, yet the
actual user manual says "Caution do not short circuit negative and
positive terminals" Apparently the BMS circuit isn't as effective as
they like to make it sound.

Reminds me of a story, one of our motorglider friends was telling me
about his new LFP batteries he installed, and said he felt they were
safe due to the BMS. I asked him if he had ever put a wrench across the
terminals to test the short circuit protection. Turns out he hadn't,
and wasn't about to try that. He's the one that had the transponder
left on accidentally, and ruined the battery due to overdischarge just a
few months later. Apparently his BMS circuit wasn't as effective as he
had been lead to believe. I see a pattern here.

John the OP is using two K2 batteries in parallel. The Bioenno manual
says you can do that with theirs, but you should measure the internal
impedance of the batteries and compensate for any difference with
resistors. It warns of the danger of fire, and says to monitor the
batteries continuously. The user is responsible for any problems due to
parallel or series connections. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for
using them in parallel.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...3_2019.pdf?209

Would be nice to see what K2 says about that, but they require
registration to see their specs. I'm not saying Bioenno makes a bad
battery, they just seem to be a little more candid than others about the
limitations of their batteries.

-Dave





  #43  
Old June 6th 20, 06:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,051
Default K2 battery endurance

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 8:48:04 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
On 6/2/20 11:09 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Richard Pfiffner wrote on 6/2/2020 9:26 AM:
...


StarkPower had a series of batteries aimed at motorcycles that they were
quite open about not having a BMS.* Unfortunately they're in Chapter 7
now and the website is gone.

More commonly, some batteries with BMS don't have over and under voltage
protection.* Richard Pfiffner one time was testing batteries, and his
vendor shipped 24 volt chargers accidentally for 12 volt batteries.* All
the white stuff leaked out of the battery.* Some electrical genius on
R.A.S. (don't remember which one) declared that they really had
overvoltage protection, but 24 volts just wasn't enough to trigger it..

One of our fellow Schleicher motorglider pilots had an LFP, left the
transponder on, and ruined the battery.* A 15-20 AH battery intended as
a starter battery can easily find it's way into other applications.* You
may have read about the ASG 32 mi that got fried when the solar
controller malfunctioned, drained the battery, and got quite hot when
charged from another charger.* Did it have a BMS?* Doesn't really
matter.

Dave

The problem batteries were Bioenno Batteries.


Were they Bioennos with a BMS that protects against overvoltage? For
example, I use the BLF-1220AS, which ....

"Includes built-in PCM (protection circuit module) which provides
internal cell balancing and management, protection from overcurrent,
undervoltage (overdischarge), overvoltage and short circuiting, and has
integrated charging circuitry "

I haven't tried applying 24 volts to it, but I'd expect it to protect
against 24 VDC being applied to it. I've just emailed Bioenno this
question, but have not heard back.


The glossy brochures say they have short-circuit protection, yet the
actual user manual says "Caution do not short circuit negative and
positive terminals" Apparently the BMS circuit isn't as effective as
they like to make it sound.

Reminds me of a story, one of our motorglider friends was telling me
about his new LFP batteries he installed, and said he felt they were
safe due to the BMS. I asked him if he had ever put a wrench across the
terminals to test the short circuit protection. Turns out he hadn't,
and wasn't about to try that. He's the one that had the transponder
left on accidentally, and ruined the battery due to overdischarge just a
few months later. Apparently his BMS circuit wasn't as effective as he
had been lead to believe. I see a pattern here.

John the OP is using two K2 batteries in parallel. The Bioenno manual
says you can do that with theirs, but you should measure the internal
impedance of the batteries and compensate for any difference with
resistors. It warns of the danger of fire, and says to monitor the
batteries continuously. The user is responsible for any problems due to
parallel or series connections. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for
using them in parallel.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...3_2019.pdf?209

Would be nice to see what K2 says about that, but they require
registration to see their specs. I'm not saying Bioenno makes a bad
battery, they just seem to be a little more candid than others about the
limitations of their batteries.

-Dave


There is one thing about designing in protection against an unintentional short circuit and an entirely another about doing it deliberately. Of course, Bioenno is going to warn against shorting the battery - this can cause serious injury.

Tom
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NY Kart Endurance Challenge 3 Hour Race - Arrive & Drive OVRPNY Piloting 0 June 9th 05 11:18 PM
NY Kart Endurance 3 Hour Challenge Race - Arrive & Drive OVRPNY Owning 0 June 9th 05 11:17 PM
NY Go Kart Endurance Racing - Arrive & Drive - No Experience Needed OVRPNY Owning 1 May 19th 05 04:56 PM
NY Go Kart Endurance Racing - Arrive & Drive - No Experience Needed OVRPNY Piloting 0 May 19th 05 02:01 AM
Speeds for best range or endurance don't depend on altitude John T Lowry Piloting 5 April 16th 04 02:02 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2020 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.