Why did Bush join the national guard?

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 9/7/2004 9:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed

So being fired on multiple times doesn't count.
Taxiing in wearing substantial portions of your
deceased copilot and good friend doesn't count.
Having a second copilot killed during landing doesn't count.
Flying onto disputed airfields doesn't count?
Losing 20 ft of fuselage to an artillery round and flying whats
left of the airplane to Guam doesn't count?
So I guess whatever it was he was delivering under fire could not
have been that important.
Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.

I have a friend who was a C-47 driver on D-Day, dropped paras.
I guess what he did doesn't count.

A gentleman I sat next to in our town band went ashore with the
first wave on D-Day but he was only a doctor so I guess he doesn't
count.

airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
something else.

Does the word tactical transport mean anything to you?
Do you know what day it is even?

IBM



There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/7/2004 8:38 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.


Arthur Kramer

So if a cargo aircraft is shot down it wasn't lost in action?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Art,

You were 10,000 feet above the tip of the spear - and then for only 30
seconds. The rest of the time you were a passenger on a bus being taken
care of by the rest of the crew. I know because you explained it to me in
your response to my early post...

Jack G.


There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
best are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?

During my later years of service, I was in the bunker telling the tips
where I wanted them, and they said "Yes Sir, three bags full!"

I didn't really care if they were the best, because they were all I had, and
we'd make adjustments anyway. Qualified and able, that was my standard.

Baa, baa, black sheep
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full!
One for my master,
One for my dame,
And one for the little boy
Who lives down the lane.

From: (ArtKramr)


There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?


Arthur Kramer


Art, bombardiers were common and, while needed, were easily replaced. Don't
flatter yourself. In reality you did all you could towards the war effort but
the war would have been won if you weren't even there. You were a minor cog in
a big wheel amongst among a great many wheels. If you were incapacitated somone
else on your plane would have gone forward and done your job.

The war involved ground and naval forces doing their jobs that were just as
important as yours. Think about it. If the convoys hadn't crossed the Atlantic
you wouldn't have been able to do your job. If the ground forces hadn't taken
territory you wouldn't have been able to do your job. It took a combination of
land, sea and air to win that damned war and it would have been wone even if
you weren't there.

Are you really that insecure you have to try to convince us you were the best
of the best? It sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself. You may
have been good bombardier, but so far the only one saying so is you.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi

-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
fact

In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

My cousin joined up in 1941.

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
did
nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he
do
that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he
didn't
****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
it
was
really like.


Arthur Kramer


Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will
watch
with great interest for your answer.

Dan, you must be one incredibly bored person if you are
reduced to waiting for that answer "with great interest".

From: "John Keeney"
Date: 9/8/2004 1:08 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi

-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
fact

In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

My cousin joined up in 1941.

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
did
nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he
do
that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he
didn't
****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
it
was
really like.


Arthur Kramer


Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will
watch
with great interest for your answer.

Dan, you must be one incredibly bored person if you are
reduced to waiting for that answer "with great interest".

It's a line from Fail Safe which I was watching at the time. I know he will
never answer the question.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ArtKramr wrote:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Jack G"
Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific





Art,

Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.

Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
pilot.



Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was to
put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover? Just
to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly a
good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't dump
bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run,
no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is
a subject you would know nothing about.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Wow! Tell that to Paul Shorts face!

Get rid of all the useless people and how does the bombardier get to the
target??

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason
which was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds.


Every bomber required at least one pilot, but not every bomber required a
bombardier.



The pilot is only a bus driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy.
So don't make too big a deal of pilots . Some are good and some are
not..If you get one who can fly a good bomb run, not dump your gyro
and keep the wings level so you don't dump bombs all over the landscape,
you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not all that easy to find. And
as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run, no one is more
qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is a subject
you would know nothing about.


Sounds like you're bitter over washing out of pilot training and being made
a bombardier.

ubject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Jack G"
Date: 9/7/2004 9:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: n8w%c.6743$Q44.2546@trnddc09

Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which
was to
put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get
him
over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover?
Just
to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:


The incredibly small world of Mr. Kramer just got a lot smaller. Kind of
sad watching him self-destruct...

Jack G.


Jealousy is a terrible thing


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer