Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

In article , wrote:
I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I
would request a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and
down."

A cruise clearance *is* a block altitude assignment.

A cruise clearance is also an instrument approach clearance, so once
I leave the last assigned for all I know the controller may be using
my Mode C as a de facto report out of that altitude.

You own the altitude until you report leaving it. Your mode C does not
count as reporting leaving the altitude.

I have received a bunch of PD clearances, and I always reported when I
started down, whether required or not. Seemed like the thing to do.

Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Bob Gardner wrote:
"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".

OK, I'm grasping at straws to justify my position. I guess (in my mind)
the key
thing is that on a visual approach clearance or a discretion to [altitude]
clearance, the controller has no way of anticipating my actions. I can
either
start down now, or whenever I feel like it. So (to me) it seems reasonable
that
I might be required to report, and I read the AIM paragraph that way.

It still seems to me that the discretion-to-altitude case definitely
requires a
report, but, OK, I'll give up on the visual approach since that is
arguably not
a newly assigned altitude.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.


Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:


----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please
read

what I

wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the

visual,

you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned

altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",

then

when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual

approach is a

"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the
above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are

saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.






--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in paragraph 5-15-4,
System Requirements, subparagraph e and f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that controller's do not
necessarily buy a Mode C readout all the time.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message ...
I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I would
request
a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and down." A cruise
clearance
is also an instrument approach clearance, so once I leave the last
assigned for
all I know the controller may be using my Mode C as a de facto report out
of
that altitude. I don't have to worry about that possible ambiguity with a
block
altitude assignment.

And, I learned a long time ago not to buy into any situation that can
become
ambiguous. That doesn't help me nor does it help the controller.

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance,
then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that
when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned
cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving
the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for
sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be
better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and
take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000
(or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go
back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the
block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make
the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000
descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I
report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so,
do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Dave Butler wrote:


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level
for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".



It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.


I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please
read what I wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and
cleared for the visual, you have to report, since you're "vacating a
previously assigned altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",
then when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual
approach is a "newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue
that in the above example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is
that what you are saying? OK.

Yes, this is my assertion.

Matt

Bob Gardner wrote:
"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Good analogy. You made the point better than I did.

Matt

Dave Butler wrote:
Bob Gardner wrote:

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?


Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".

No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your
original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for the
approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes from
that point until you are on the runway.


OK, I'm grasping at straws to justify my position. I guess (in my mind)
the key thing is that on a visual approach clearance or a discretion to
[altitude] clearance, the controller has no way of anticipating my
actions. I can either start down now, or whenever I feel like it. So (to
me) it seems reasonable that I might be required to report, and I read
the AIM paragraph that way.

Yes, you are grasping for straws. :-)


It still seems to me that the discretion-to-altitude case definitely
requires a report, but, OK, I'll give up on the visual approach since
that is arguably not a newly assigned altitude.

Hopefully, one of the resident ATC folks will chime in with what they
believe is correct.


Matt

One of the reasons why it is not required to report descending when you are
cleared for the visual approach is because it is quite plausible that you
will be out of radio contact when you begin your descent. When the
controller says "Cleared for the approach" not only is he assuring there are
no airplanes on your intended course to the airport, but also he is
transferring terrain avoidance responsibility solely to you, whereas
previously he shared this responsibility with you.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...

Perhaps the visual approach and cruise clearance fall into the same
category?

Almost for sure these fall into the same categories.

If you are cleared for an approach into an airport without radar approach
service, the entire airport get shut down to IFR traffic until you cancel
IFR, so spacing is a non-issue.

If you are cleared for an approach into an airport with radar approach
service, you will probably be vectored for an instrument approach or
visually separated by a tower. If you conduct a visual approach into a
non-towered field and do not cancel IFR, again the airport remains shut down
so spacing is a non-issue.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan wrote:

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...

Perhaps the visual approach and cruise clearance fall into the same
category?

Almost for sure these fall into the same categories.

If you are cleared for an approach into an airport without radar approach
service, the entire airport get shut down to IFR traffic until you cancel
IFR, so spacing is a non-issue.


That is often true, but not always true. Timed approaches permit multiple IFR
operations into some airports without radar services. Timed approaches used to
be common, sort of went away, and are now used a lot again. San Luis Obispo,
California ia an example that comes to mind.

Bob Gardner wrote:

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in paragraph 5-15-4,
System Requirements, subparagraph e and f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that controller's do not
necessarily buy a Mode C readout all the time.

That book has rules then it has rules.