For Keith Willshaw...

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 7.
Now we are into Denyav debating nothing new here really, I timed my effort
at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target. It would seem Denyav finally read the text after I posted it.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.
24) Denyav is now simply inventing things I have supposed to have said.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so be aware around 95%
of my text is simply putting back in the text Denyav simply has to drop,
nothing new here really, apart from the modern quotes. I timed my effort
at 10 minutes plus the 5 minute

You are very versed in using many detractors in your posts,but you seem to
forget the main rule:

Bad Policy cannot be corrected by excellent Strategy,bad Strategy cannot be
saved by excellent tactics.

Yes folks the non answer is the strategy.

If we put your detractors aside and summarize your most current position,we
find out :

1)According to you every statement no matter if they originated from
Stimson,Dulles,Churchill,Casey,Popov,Weiijeman,Ge n.Thorpe,Hoover,Capt.Holc
wick,Dies Lieb etc is IRRELEVANT for the Pearl Harbor incident if they point to
a direction other than official direction.

According to me the statements being used do not support the
conspiracy. By the way folks, no mention has been made for "Casey,
Popov, WGen.Thorpe,Hoover,Capt.Holcwick and "Lieb" before this
but do not worry, if you are going to lie about someone else, lie about
the discussion as well.

I like the way the Churchill quote cannot survive with the extra text
a few pages later being noted.

I like the fact the following Stimson quote is apparently confirming he
knew about the attack before hand.

"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how should we maneuver them into position of firing
the first shot without too much danger to ourselves. In spite of risk involved,
however, in letting Japanase to fire the first shot, we realized that in order
to have full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that
the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in
anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson, The Secretary of War,Nov.25,1941

Congratulations on a non relevant quote, by the way ever going to tell
us why the invasion of the Philippines, Wake and Guam and attacks
on US shipping were not enough for first shot honours? By the way the
above is apparently proof Stimson is admitting to allowing the Pearl
Harbor attack, as opposed to admitting he was not going to allow the
US to start shooting first.

Remember the isolationists, plus those that opposed FDR? The US
was a democracy, people actually differed from the government and
were allowed to. Such people were against the government starting
a war without congressional approval at least.

By the way "Next Monday" for someone writing on 25 November 1941
is 1 December 1941. Amazing how FDR knew the Japanese were
going to attack on 30 November 1941, the day after the 29 November
deadline the Japanese had set. Oh that's right, throw away all the
predictions that were incorrect and only ever mention the ones that
were correct, conspiracies need such help.

2)You have finally admitted,after resisting long time to do so,that the
Japanase blundered away JN25B code.

Translation Denyav needed to rewind to the start and simply lie about
what I have said.

You have also finally admitted that US took advantage of Japanase blunder
and recovered almost 5000 JN25B codes before March 1941.

This is what I said, in a different thread,

The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect
of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

You see it is quite simple announce every random number recovered
is a JN-25B code book value, totally different thing of course but do not
let that stop you. Please continue this line, it shows how wrong you are.

But according to you US,that was able to recover 5000 codes in only a few
months,suddenly stopped recovering codes in March 1941 !!!!!.

Yes folks, Denyav has to announce he does not want to know multiple
times. The % additive book came into service on 1 October 1940 and
went out of service on 31 January 1941. It increased the size of the
random number tables from 30,000 to 50,000, plus allowing the clerk
to start from any column, not column 1 of a row on the chosen page.
This further required changes to the message group where the sender
told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

I guess in March 1941, USN came under command of Yamamato and
he stopped all code recovering work as that could be dangerous for IJN
in nearing conflict.

This would presumably explain the IJN conspiracy to lose at Midway.

Thats your current position absent your detractors.

Yes folks, Denyav needs to do both sides of the debate, it stops
the facts intruding.

Truly amazing position indeed.

Translation, Denyav now needs to reply to himself in order to look
like he has any facts.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."


Denyav wrote in message ...
The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect
of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

On plain English that means the Japanase continued to blunder away JN25 B
continuously for two months.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue.

In Plain English you will continue to deny what really happened in the days
prior to Pearl Harbor.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue.

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

Heck even some main actors of Pearl Harbor,like Stimson and Churchill etc
admitted it.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue, he needs to
pretend what people say.

You are really very good in hiding reality behind too many irrelevant words.

In plain English Denyav needs to delete the evidence.

What did you say now?
US stopped recovering codes in March when only 5% codes were recovered.

"If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941."

This is great, this shows Denyav's techniques so well.

Firstly changing the random numbers, additives, into code values.
The random numbers, additives, are used to disguise the code
groups and need to be removed first, no additives no code groups.

Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code
in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941.

First of all do you believe to what you say?

Denyav is admitting here he does not believe what he posts,
and assumes others have the same tactics

Everbody knew that US and Japan were moving toward a confrontation in Pasific
and and US had a golden opportunity to recover all japanese naval codes,and
suddenly US stopped work on code recovering in March only after a couple of
months work!!!!.

If everybody knew there was going to be a war then diplomacy
becomes rather irrelevant.

Yes folks, Denyav needs to reply to what he wants to reply to, not
to the facts. The US stopped work on the A version about 4 months
after the IJN ceased using it, moving to the B version.

Code recovering did not stop in March,it did not stop on Dec.7 either.

Strange that, but Denyav needs to go off and pretend about what I said.

According to your data US recovered roughly 5000 codes by March
which seems to be correct.

Thanks for a really great laugh, they US recovered around 5,000 random
number additives of the 5 additive book, out of 50,000, the additive book
that had been in use for months before the A to B codebook change over.
This gives an idea of just how little the allies could read in early 1941
since the additives needed to be removed before the code groups could
be looked at.

But even with 5000 recoveries you can read the most of the messages.

Yes folks, now having invented recoveries move to the next leap of logic.

"A large code as many as 55000 values ,but in actual practice ,such was
streotyped nature of the text,7000 recoveries permitted almost complete
decyription,and many pattern messages could be read practicaly entire with as
few as 1500 meanings"(History of OP-20-GYP-1,NSA)

Trouble is folks, the key messages were not transmitted and were
anything but routine messages, even if the above statement is true.

Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this
percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came into the Coral Sea? In the latter case it meant
the US carriers found themselves with the Japanese airbases in front
and the Japanese carriers behind, hence the way the tanker and
destroyer supposed to be safely in the rear were sunk first.

How about the fact just before midway the allies were intercepting
around 60% of IJN traffic and decoding about 20% of the intercepted
messages, plus gaining some parts of around 70% of messages.

deleted text,

"As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]
April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400 values recovered"

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allies thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

ou see folks, conspiracy land would have the Red Cross must have
known, after all there they were preparing for air raids. Note that in
March 1941 the IJN attack was still in the is it possible discussion
phase between senior leaders.

For a different view please check out:
http://www.usni.org/Naval History/Articles/NHborgquist6.htm

Even without the typo, this comes up as page not found for me.

Yes change the subject time. Try and defend the first Churchill
quote and wish away the second.

Is quoting from one page and wishing away others a priviledge given only to
Gov't employees? I did not know that.

This is very funny, either Denyav is admitting he is a government
employee, since he is quoting from one page and wishing away
or we have the usual fun stuff. Invent my job, wrongly of course. I
should send in a list of pay and conditions requirements.

the specific attacks, not the
war as a whole. Drag the Red Cross leadership into the conspiracy
claims.

You are very smart really,Red Cross of early 40s had more in common
with FEMA of 2001 ,than the Red Cross of 2001.

Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the

Thats seems to be big problem for the custodians of Pearl Harbor conspiracy.
The public interest in books and websites telling them what their Great Leaders
did not and do not tell is skyrocketing specially after 9/11.

Denyav is proudly announcing he does not have a clue about
book sales.

I think now its pretty safe assume that so called conspiracy theories are now
becoming mainstream theories accepted by the most of the people.

Translation Denyav is delusional, as can be seen from this posting.

Congratulations on a non relevant quote, by the way ever going to tell
us why the invasion of the Philippines, Wake and Guam and

What Stimson said is irrelevant,

Never mentions Pearl Harbor.

What Churchill said is irrelevent.

Notes all messages the allies decoded were released just after the war.

What Congressman Dies said is irrelevant.

Simply put if he had the information why didn't he release it on
the floor of Congress.

What Joseph Grew said is irrelevant.

The IJN had just been given the results of the Taranto raid. If Grew
really knew then one of only about 2 or 3 IJN officers talked, since
it was still Yamamoto's idea, not a plan.

In case people are wondering Denyav is mining the conspiracy
site of Mark Willey, the name he dare not utter, presumably he will
endorse the claim the US was trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway
as well and that the US never gave Pearl Harbor any help cracking
JN-25, the unit there had to start from scratch in December 1941.

There are more names to be added from the page if Denyav wants
to continue this line, you know the world is flat because some people
say it is.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

What Haan said is irrelevant.

I presume this is the Kilsoo Haan that is supposed to be a member of
the Sino-Korean People's League. Apparently there was a Korean
who is supposed to have seen the plans. We will ignore the problems
of a Korean making it in the IJN, think something worse than US race
relations in the 1930s. Presumably you should ask the person who is
claimed to be given the information, Senator Guy Gillette, who seems
to have never put the information out on the floor of the Senate. Of
course FDR is apparently told in a private, no notes meeting.

What US Army Gen.Rhorpe said is irrelevant.

Which Rhorpe? I presume the claimed messages sent by General
Thorpe. The problem is quite simple, the Japanese diplomatic
system did not know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather hard
to credit a cracked diplomatic message with having the information.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

See, Thorpe, Elliott R. East Wind Rain: The Intimate Account of an
Intelligence Officer in the Pacific, 1939-1949. Boston: Gambit, 1969.

What Popov said is irrelevant.

Given he was no where near the place, and the Germans did not
attack the target.

What Journalist Leib said is irrelevant.

Which Leib? The one who is supposed to have been shown a
message by Hull? Apparently the one the IJN couriered to
Nagumo. No evidence of course. Oh yes, apparently the New
York Times on 8 December 1941 is supposed to have published
an article claiming the, presumably Pearl Harbor, attack was
known about, time and place. Amazing how New York seems
to have missed that, similar for the rest of the US, at the time
and later during the various post war hearings.

What Capt.Rannefft of Dutch Navy said is irrelevant.

His diary makes it clear he was not talking about the Pearl
Harbor strike despite attempts to claim otherwise, after
some enhancements to the text.

Countless others are irrelevant.

Denyav, Denyav, Denyav, it is marvellous how you can count yourself
several dozen times.

Now try the IJN and USN people dealing with the strike and the
many histories that conclude no conspiracy, plus all the USN
and IJN documents showing the same conclusion.

So whats relevant?
Of course the words of Pearl Harbor conspiracy custodians!!.

Actually I have not quoted the conspiracy custodians, that
firstly requires a conspiracy to take custody of. Meantime
Denyav quotes the conspiracy custodians, the ones who have
custody of the conspiracy to lie about the events of 1941, people
like Stinnett and Willey.

No wonder books,movies and websites telling what the custodians try to hide are
experiencing a boom.

The boom is the theories exploding in their face, think duck as
in Daffy.

Simply put,people do not want to hear lies only any longer.

Denyav however will continue.

Too bad for the custodians.

This is because it is really possible to die laughing.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

In Plain English you will continue to deny what really happened in the days
prior to Pearl Harbor.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue.


Nice to see you in the forum again,I guess you dont work,oops I meant post,on
weekends.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue, he needs to
pretend what people say.

Of course all those people say is IRRELEVANT for you.
Unlike some gov't employees who say what they supposed to say,even if they dont
believe to what they say,I, like the majority of people find them utmostly
relevant

Being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays,I guess.

In plain English Denyav needs to delete the evidence.

Since when detractors are called evidence?

Denyav is admitting here he does not believe what he posts,
and assumes others have the same tactics

Even your pretty skilful use of detractors could not hide the fact,that you
said in your last post that in March 41,US stopped recovering (I said no)
whereas now you admit that recovery work did not stop in april.
I like your detractors and salami tactic.
Even without the typo, this comes up as page not found for me.

You are right .But I dont know why maybe only for subscribers.
Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Red Cross of 1941 was more like FEMA of 2001 than Red Cross of 2001,which also
means that the parties interested in finding truths about 9/11 must scrunitize
FEMA more closely than CIA or FBI.
Denyav is proudly announcing he does not have a clue about
book sales.
Yeah right,even a third rate documentary is breaking records.

Translation Denyav is delusional, as can be seen from this posting.


Accept the fact the majority on this planet do not believe to US evergreen
stories anymore (Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11),after 150 years you must
come up with new story line,not with the copycat versions of the original.

Never mentions Pearl Harbor.

You are right,he did not even mentioned anything about particulars of attack,he
did not mention exact date of attack,the launch position of japanese
carriers,torpedo drop altitude selected by japanase carriers etc.

You are 100% right his words are totally irrelevant under this circumstances.


Notes all messages the allies decoded were released just after the war.

That means all messages the allies decoded (during war) were not released
during the war,which supports his statement in page 598.


Simply put if he had the information why didn't he release it on
the floor of Congress.


I think he gave the answer to your question,namely FDR and Hull asked him to
keep the info secret.


Senator Guy Gillette, who seems
to have never put the information out on the floor of the Senate. Of
course FDR is apparently told in a private, no notes meeting.


I wonder if current Senators are putting everything they know out on the Senate
floor?

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

It was message to Bangkok,and in this message name of Pearl Harbor appeared
along with three others.

What Popov said is irrelevant.

Given he was no where near the place, and the Germans did not
attack the target.

Of course irrelevant.

Which Leib? The one who is supposed to have been shown a
message by Hull? Apparently the one the IJN couriered to
Nagumo. No evidence of course.

I guess you were the courier who delivered message to Yamamato.

Oh yes, apparently the New
York Times on 8 December 1941 is supposed to have published
an article claiming the, presumably Pearl Harbor, attack was
known about, time and place. Amazing how New York seems
to have missed that, similar for the rest of the US, at the time
and later during the various post

As you are proving with every post,if you want to miss or disregard
evidences,the sky is the limit.

His diary makes it clear he was not talking about the Pearl
Harbor strike despite attempts to claim otherwise, after
some enhancements to the text.

His original diary is available in Dutch archieves (in Dutch of course),if you
are interested I can post it here.(in Dutch)

Simply put,people do not want to hear lies only any longer.

Denyav however will continue.

At least I dont get paid for that.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 7.
Now we are into Denyav debating nothing new here really, I timed my effort
at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

I hate to delete your detractors but we are now pretty familiar with your
position.

1)Calling everything,that point to the directions other than official
version,IRRELEVANT.

2)Accepting Japanase code blunder but claiming that US stopped code recovery
work in April 41,after recovering 5000 codes

3)Then accepting that code recovery did not stop in April.

You are trying to defend an undefendable position and you need of course lots
of detractors for the defense.

But dont worry many gov't employees have similar problems nowadays.

This took 5 minutes of basic cut and paste of deleted words back into the text.

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

Denyav wrote in message ...
In Plain English you will continue to deny what really happened in the days
prior to Pearl Harbor.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue.

Nice to see you in the forum again,I guess you dont work,oops I meant post,on
weekends.

This is becoming very funny, ever heard of a weekend away?
Ever heard of the idea things can wait a few days?

Denyav has decided this is my work it seems, which is great, I
will get his address and send him the bill.

deleted text,

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue, he needs to
pretend what people say.

Of course all those people say is IRRELEVANT for you.

No what the people are saying does not match what Denyav is
saying.

Unlike some gov't employees who say what they supposed to say,
even if they dont believe to what they say,I, like the majority of people
find them utmostly relevant

You see folks, Denyav has decided where I work without proof and
has to pretend he is a majority.

Being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays,I guess.

Denyav is into self pity. The conspiracy to lie about a conspiracy.

In plain English Denyav needs to delete the evidence.

Since when detractors are called evidence?

As people can see the evidence is deleted.

Denyav is admitting here he does not believe what he posts,
and assumes others have the same tactics

Even your pretty skilful use of detractors could not hide the fact,that you
said in your last post that in March 41,US stopped recovering (I said no)
whereas now you admit that recovery work did not stop in april.
I like your detractors and salami tactic.

deleted text, to the next .

Strange that, but Denyav needs to go off and pretend about what I said,
from a post where I gave the recovered code values totals until the end
of 1941, Denyav keeps deleting the totals.

"If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

Thanks for a really great laugh, they US recovered around 5,000 random
number additives of the 5 additive book, out of 50,000, the additive book
that had been in use for months before the A to B codebook change over.
This gives an idea of just how little the allies could read in early 1941
since the additives needed to be removed before the code groups could
be looked at.

This is great, this shows Denyav's techniques so well.

Firstly changing the random numbers, additives, into code values.
The random numbers, additives, are used to disguise the code
groups and need to be removed first, no additives no code groups.

Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code
in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941.

Trouble is folks, the key messages were not transmitted and were
anything but routine messages, even if the above statement is true.

Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this
percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came into the Coral Sea? In the latter case it meant
the US carriers found themselves with the Japanese airbases in front
and the Japanese carriers behind, hence the way the tanker and
destroyer supposed to be safely in the rear were sunk first.

How about the fact just before midway the allies were intercepting
around 60% of IJN traffic and decoding about 20% of the intercepted
messages, plus gaining some parts of around 70% of messages.

deleted text,

"As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]
April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400 values recovered"

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allies thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

Even without the typo, this comes up as page not found for me.

You are right .But I dont know why maybe only for subscribers.

Translation Denyav chooses to supply URLs with no evidence.

Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Red Cross of 1941 was more like FEMA of 2001 than Red Cross of 2001,
which also
means that the parties interested in finding truths about 9/11 must scrunitize
FEMA more closely than CIA or FBI.

Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Denyav is proudly announcing he does not have a clue about
book sales.
Yeah right,even a third rate documentary is breaking records.

So this documentary is on Pearl Harbor right?

Translation Denyav is delusional, as can be seen from this posting.

Accept the fact the majority on this planet do not believe to US evergreen
stories anymore (Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11),after 150 years you must
come up with new story line,not with the copycat versions of the original.

Translation Denyav denies the tide is in, the air is just a little wet.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the typos though.

Never mentions Pearl Harbor.

You are right,he did not even mentioned anything about particulars of attack,he
did not mention exact date of attack,the launch position of japanese
carriers,torpedo drop altitude selected by japanase carriers etc.

You are 100% right his words are totally irrelevant under this circumstances.

These are the words that apparently prove what Stimson knew, they have
to be deleted,

"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how should we maneuver them into position of firing
the first shot without too much danger to ourselves. In spite of risk involved,
however, in letting Japanase to fire the first shot, we realized that in order
to have full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that
the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in
anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson, The Secretary of War,Nov.25,1941

Notes all messages the allies decoded were released just after the war.

That means all messages the allies decoded (during war) were not released
during the war,which supports his statement in page 598.

Yes folks, remember the conspiracy to cause Pearl Harbor must
have happened pre war and that Churchill says all the decoded
messages were released.

In case people are wondering Denyav is mining the conspiracy
site of Mark Willey, the name he dare not utter, presumably he will
endorse the claim the US was trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway
as well and that the US never gave Pearl Harbor any help cracking
JN-25, the unit there had to start from scratch in December 1941.

There are more names to be added from the page if Denyav wants
to continue this line, you know the world is flat because some people
say it is.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.


Simply put if he had the information why didn't he release it on
the floor of Congress.

I think he gave the answer to your question,namely FDR and Hull asked
him to keep the info secret.

Ah yes, so he kept the secret until he died, allowing the system to
railroad the commanders etc. etc. Dies was a very anti communist
person, the claimed information could be used to discredit much
of the democrat administration even post war, but strange to tell
the claimed information never surfaces until people are dead.


Senator Guy Gillette, who seems
to have never put the information out on the floor of the Senate. Of
course FDR is apparently told in a private, no notes meeting.

I wonder if current Senators are putting everything they know out on the Senate
floor?

Post war would be easily possible, as part of the investigations even.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

It was message to Bangkok,and in this message name of Pearl Harbor
appeared along with three others.

No.

Which Rhorpe? I presume the claimed messages sent by General
Thorpe. The problem is quite simple, the Japanese diplomatic
system did not know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather hard
to credit a cracked diplomatic message with having the information.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

See, Thorpe, Elliott R. East Wind Rain: The Intimate Account of an
Intelligence Officer in the Pacific, 1939-1949. Boston: Gambit, 1969.

What Popov said is irrelevant.

Given he was no where near the place, and the Germans did not
attack the target.

Of course irrelevant.

But Denyav will include it, since it was on a web site.

Which Leib? The one who is supposed to have been shown a
message by Hull? Apparently the one the IJN couriered to
Nagumo. No evidence of course.

I guess you were the courier who delivered message to Yamamato.

No, the IJN officers present told people about the communications.
This is the trouble for the conspiracy the IJN keeps shooting it down.

Oh yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

Oh yes, apparently the New
York Times on 8 December 1941 is supposed to have published
an article claiming the, presumably Pearl Harbor, attack was
known about, time and place. Amazing how New York seems
to have missed that, similar for the rest of the US, at the time
and later during the various post

As you are proving with every post,if you want to miss or disregard
evidences,the sky is the limit.

Yes folks, the article does not appear instead we are left to believe
no one in New Your noticed it.

His diary makes it clear he was not talking about the Pearl
Harbor strike despite attempts to claim otherwise, after
some enhancements to the text.

His original diary is available in Dutch archieves (in Dutch of course),if you
are interested I can post it here.(in Dutch)

This should be funny, presumably Denyav can read Dutch,
including the Captain's shorthand.

Actually I have not quoted the conspiracy custodians, that
firstly requires a conspiracy to take custody of. Meantime
Denyav quotes the conspiracy custodians, the ones who have
custody of the conspiracy to lie about the events of 1941, people
like Stinnett and Willey

Simply put,people do not want to hear lies only any longer.

Denyav however will continue.

At least I dont get paid for that.

Denyav however will continue with the lies.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Nice to see you in the forum again,I guess you dont work,oops I meant
post,on
weekends.

This is becoming very funny, ever heard of a weekend away?
Ever heard of the idea things can wait a few days?

Perfect enjoy it.

No what the people are saying does not match what Denyav is
saying.

Unfortunately what people says,from Churchill to Dulles,from Stimson to Hoover
and countless others is IRRELEVANT for you because they do not match what you
are telling us.

You see folks, Denyav has decided where I work without proof and
has to pretend he is a majority.

Did I say "You are a gov' t employee"?
NO.
But your response to that is interesting.

Denyav is into self pity. The conspiracy to lie about a conspiracy.

Which reminds me your posts.

As people can see the evidence is deleted.

Detractors sir,nothing but detractors.
Strange that, but Denyav needs to go off and pretend about what I said,
from a post where I gave the recovered code values totals until the end
of 1941, Denyav keeps deleting the totals.

Only after claiming that recovery work had been stopped in March after recovery
of almost 5000 codes.As you now say recovery work did stop in March.
BTW 5000 code recoveries in three months is a good performance and enabled
US,as Safford stated enough to read the most of Japanase traffic.

Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code

Now your correction comes?

Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941.

Actually work never ended.

percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came into the

Could you tell me ,surely you know the story,how US only a couple of months
after Pearl Harbor were able to read IJN messages in entirety.?
Midway is based almost solely on intelligence superiority.
Sometimes you are contradicting yourself.

April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"

uly 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400

Roughly 10000 values according to Safford more than enough to read the most of
the IJN traffic.

Translation Denyav chooses to supply URLs with no evidence.

I think anybody with subs.to the Proceeding can access to article.

been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

So this documentary is on Pearl Harbor right?


No,but on a copy cat version of Pearl Harbor.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Of course,only official's claims match evidences,because they are the ones who
produce official evidences.

Post war would be easily possible, as part of the investigations even.


No,dont you know some selected senators always meet behind closed doors.

This should be funny, presumably Denyav can read Dutch,
including the Captain's shorthan

You bet.

custody of. Meantime
Denyav quotes the conspiracy custodians, the ones who have
custody of the conspiracy to lie about the events of 1941, people
like Stinnett and Willey

I think you are the conspiracy custodian,sir
Numbers declining but still exist.

Ah yes the near total erase take 8. Now we are into Denyav debating
himself but assigning the words to me, nothing new here really, I timed
my effort at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target. It would seem Denyav finally read the text after I posted it.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.
24) Denyav is now simply inventing things I have supposed to have said.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 7.
Now we are into Denyav debating nothing new here really, I timed my effort
at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

I hate to delete your detractors but we are now pretty familiar with your
position.

Translation Denyav has to delete my words and then tell the world
what he wants me to have said.

1)Calling everything,that point to the directions other than official
version,IRRELEVANT.

So please post the text where I said this,

My uses of the word irrelevant,

"Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?"

"Let the laughs begin. Or more particularly Denyav's tour of web
sites looking for irrelevant quotes."

2)Accepting Japanase code blunder but claiming that US stopped code recovery
work in April 41,after recovering 5000 codes

Please provide the text where I said this.

Yes folks, Denyav is going to announce he does no idea on IJN
codes, confusing the recovery of random number meant to disguise
the code groups, (stage 1) with giving meaning to the code groups
(stage 3), stage 2 is listing the code groups in use.

3)Then accepting that code recovery did not stop in April.

Yes folks, I list the allied code recoveries to January 1942 and
that means I stopped talking about code recoveries in April 1941.
Simple logic really.

This is what I said, in a different thread,

The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect
of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

You see it is quite simple announce every random number recovered
is a JN-25B code book value, totally different thing of course but do not
let that stop you. Please continue this line, it shows how wrong you are.

Yes folks, Denyav has to announce he does not want to know multiple
times. The 5 additive book came into service on 1 October 1940 and
went out of service on 31 January 1941. It increased the size of the
random number tables from 30,000 to 50,000, plus allowing the clerk
to start from any column, not column 1 of a row on the chosen page.
This further required changes to the message group where the sender
told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

You are trying to defend an undefendable position and you need of course lots
of detractors for the defense.

This is becoming very funny, the defender of the undefendable
position is the one who needs to keep deleting all the evidence.

But dont worry many gov't employees have similar problems nowadays.

Ah yes, Denyav is trying to announce I am a government employee, which
he considers to be a great insult. He is as accurate here as elsewhere.
Oh yes, I trust he does not use money since it is only money if the government
says so, not government owned roads or parks etc. Or perhaps he does,
to award more medals for defying the (non existent) enemy.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

yes folks, if the theory requires a pink elephant driving a BMW
while towing a trailer upon which a giraffe is doing the hula dance
Denyav will announce elephants go to slimming clubs, wear lots
of pink make up and can drive, while giraffes are native to Hawaii.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Nice to see you in the forum again,I guess you dont work,oops I meant
post,on weekends.

This is becoming very funny, ever heard of a weekend away?
Ever heard of the idea things can wait a few days?

Perfect enjoy it.

This should be good, the attempt to imply I am paid to spend so
much time laughing will no doubt continue.

deleted text,

Denyav has decided this is my work it seems, which is great, I
will get his address and send him the bill.

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

No what the people are saying does not match what Denyav is
saying.

Unfortunately what people says,from Churchill to Dulles,from Stimson to
Hoover and countless others is IRRELEVANT for you because they do
not match what you are telling us.

Translation Denyav needs to pretend he has people agreeing with
him even when they do not. Churchill, Stimson and Hoover for a start,
Dulles without any attempt to provide the evidence. "countless" is
defined as Denyav counting himself multiple time, 1, 2 3, many.

You see folks, Denyav has decided where I work without proof and
has to pretend he is a majority.

Did I say "You are a gov' t employee"?
NO.
But your response to that is interesting.

Translation Denyav will continue to try and smear, using his ideas of
insults of course. He has announced he is not paid to push his jokes,
which is not surprising, those who know the truth would not pay to push
lies and those pushing the lies would not pay for such mediocre efforts.

Note now the absurd attempt to try and avoid the fact he has no
long range "what does that person do" device.

Denyav is into self pity. The conspiracy to lie about a conspiracy.

Which reminds me your posts.


The last post was while waiting for a haircut, the person next to me
wanted to know where the site with all the great jokes were since I
was laughing so much. His response when I told him what was
going on, without the adjectives, was "conspiracies are for losers".

As people can see the evidence is deleted.

Detractors sir,nothing but detractors.

Yes folks, if the evidence does not fit ignore it.

Strange that, but Denyav needs to go off and pretend about what I said,
from a post where I gave the recovered code values totals until the end
of 1941, Denyav keeps deleting the totals.

Only after claiming that recovery work had been stopped in March after recovery
of almost 5000 codes.

Simply I never said that, another claim without proof.

As you now say recovery work did stop in March.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

BTW 5000 code recoveries in three months is a good performance and enabled
US,as Safford stated enough to read the most of Japanase traffic.

By the way folks Denyav is going to keep announcing he has no
idea about the code, changing recoveries of random numbers
into recovery of the meanings of code groups. The allies knew
around 5,000 random numbers from the 5 additive book, which
ended use on 31 January 1941. They had 300 B code group
meanings assigned by 1 April 1941. Different things.

deleted text, on the idea the failure to change additives compromised
the B code.

"If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

Thanks for a really great laugh, they US recovered around 5,000 random
number additives of the 5 additive book, out of 50,000, the additive book
that had been in use for months before the A to B codebook change over.
This gives an idea of just how little the allies could read in early 1941
since the additives needed to be removed before the code groups could
be looked at.

This is great, this shows Denyav's techniques so well.

Firstly changing the random numbers, additives, into code values.
The random numbers, additives, are used to disguise the code
groups and need to be removed first, no additives no code groups.

Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code

deleted text,

"in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941."

Now your correction comes?

Yes folks, Denyav cannot cope with reality so pretend the story
has changed.

Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941.

Actually work never ended.

So tell us all please what A code values did the US recover in say
the second half of 1941?


Deleted text,

"Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this"

percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came into the

Could you tell me, surely you know the story,how US only a couple of months
after Pearl Harbor were able to read IJN messages in entirety.?

yes folks, Denyav cannot answer how come his claims mean the
US could read less in 1942 than in 1941 so it is time to change
the subject.

The reason the allies could read more in 1942 was quite simple,
they had recovered more of the code. I like the idea what was
possible in May 1942 is supposed to be less than November
1941 despite 6 months more work. Oh yes the USN went onto
trying to read IJN messages immediately on 18 March 1942,
it was then they had enough of the code to try this.

Midway is based almost solely on intelligence superiority.
Sometimes you are contradicting yourself.

Yes folks, just announce in effect the US went backwards
in code reading ability in 1941 to fit the conspiracy.

Deleted text,

"How about the fact just before midway the allies were intercepting
around 60% of IJN traffic and decoding about 20% of the intercepted
messages, plus gaining some parts of around 70% of messages.

"As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]

April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"

uly 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400

Roughly 10000 values according to Safford more than enough
to read the most of the IJN traffic.

This is good, the allies have 2,400 values but the claim is they
needed 10,000. Note by the way how many the allies had in January
1942 below. Denyav will now painfully put 2 and 2 together and
come up with a convenient number. See the tracking of the recoveries
shows why the allies could actually read JN-25 in 1942 but not 1941.

Deleted text,

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allies thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

By the way people will be happy to know the quote assigned
to Safford (about the number of code groups needed) was
written by someone else, and appears to be related to a
situation in 1943 where units were sending very standardised
messages. Hard to tell exactly given how badly the quote is transcribed.

Translation Denyav chooses to supply URLs with no evidence.

I think anybody with subs.to the Proceeding can access to article.

So Denyav will continue to avoid presenting the evidence.

been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

So this documentary is on Pearl Harbor right?

No,but on a copy cat version of Pearl Harbor.

When did the IJN attack US territory again after 1942?
Where did the new IJN carriers come from?

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Of course,only official's claims match evidences,because they are
the ones who produce official evidences.

Thanks for admitting the conspiracy people do not match the evidence.

Post war would be easily possible, as part of the investigations even.

No,dont you know some selected senators always meet behind closed doors.

Ah a good laugh does wonders for the soul. Apparently Senators
and Congressman, some major opponents of FDR, failed to make
the evidence public and now this is apparently because they
always meet behind closed doors. Presumably never let out onto
the floor of the house etc.

deleted text,

"Ah yes, so he kept the secret until he died, allowing the system to
railroad the commanders etc. etc. Dies was a very anti communist
person, the claimed information could be used to discredit much
of the democrat administration even post war, but strange to tell
the claimed information never surfaces until people are dead."

This should be funny, presumably Denyav can read Dutch,
including the Captain's shorthan

You bet.

But fails to provide the evidence.

custody of. Meantime
Denyav quotes the conspiracy custodians, the ones who have
custody of the conspiracy to lie about the events of 1941, people
like Stinnett and Willey

I think you are the conspiracy custodian,sir
Numbers declining but still exist.

Yes folks, delete the evidence and you can claim anything.

rest of the post is deleted text,

"Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Translation Denyav denies the tide is in, the air is just a little wet.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the typos though.

Yes folks, remember the conspiracy to cause Pearl Harbor must
have happened pre war and that Churchill says all the decoded
messages were released.

In case people are wondering Denyav is mining the conspiracy
site of Mark Willey, the name he dare not utter, presumably he will
endorse the claim the US was trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway
as well and that the US never gave Pearl Harbor any help cracking
JN-25, the unit there had to start from scratch in December 1941.

There are more names to be added from the page if Denyav wants
to continue this line, you know the world is flat because some people
say it is.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Which Rhorpe? I presume the claimed messages sent by General
Thorpe. The problem is quite simple, the Japanese diplomatic
system did not know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather hard
to credit a cracked diplomatic message with having the information.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

See, Thorpe, Elliott R. East Wind Rain: The Intimate Account of an
Intelligence Officer in the Pacific, 1939-1949. Boston: Gambit, 1969.

No, the IJN officers present told people about the communications.
This is the trouble for the conspiracy the IJN keeps shooting it down.

Oh yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

(on the claimed New York article of 8 December 1941)

Yes folks, the article does not appear instead we are left to believe
no one in New Your noticed it.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

This should be good, the attempt to imply I am paid to spend so
much time laughing will no doubt continue.


Surely you are not paid to protect official position.

Translation Denyav needs to pretend he has people agreeing with
him even when they do not. Churchill, Stimson and Hoover for a start,
Dulles without any attempt to

They do not agree with me,but I do agree with what they say.Thats a small but
important difference.

provide the evidence. "countless" is
defined as Denyav counting himself multiple time, 1, 2 3, many.

I quoted them several times in my posts too but according to you they were
"irrelevant"
How soon you forgat that.


Translation Denyav will continue to try and smear, using his ideas of
insults of course. He has announced he is not paid to push his jokes,
which is not surprising, those who know the truth would not pay to push

Apparently many sharing these ideas,people know that what their officials are
telling them is not always the truth.


Yes folks, if the evidence does not fit ignore it.

The evidences that you find find "irrelevant" could easily qualify for the
above.

Simply I never said that, another claim without proof.

I guess you do not even read your own posts.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

An other way of backpedalling or accepting code recovery work has never been
stopped.BTW hiding behind terms is a pretty common way.

By the way folks Denyav is going to keep announcing he has no
idea about the code, changing recoveries of random numbers
into recovery of the meanings of code groups. The allies knew
around 5,000 random numbers from the 5 additive book, which

Lots of detractors included to this part of message so obviously there is
something to hide here.

Lets summarize your own position:
1)You said that codes are something like a special language.I agree.
2)You said the recovering of the codes is something like learning a
language,slow and time consuming.Agreed.
3)Now you are trying to defend your not defendable position by hiding an
alphabet soup.
4)If we continue to use language analogy:JN25A and B are not different
languages they are different dialects of the same language.But you are trying
to sell them as as if they were different languages
5)Lets continue to use language analogy:
How many words are there in any language,for example English?
How many words do you use everday?
Very small percentage I guess.
That was exactly the point of Safford when he asserted that 7000 codes were
enough to read almost all JN25B coded messages,even though JN25B had almost
55000 codes.
Now you are trying to use alphabet as detractor and trying to hide the fact
that US had just before PH had 10000 JN25B codes in the hand,which was
,according to Safford,much more than he needed to read the most of JN25B
dispatces !.
6)Now Midway,its enlightening to see that the custodians of official version
are actually challenging the official version to defend their hard to defend
positions.
On many issues the officials and historians disagree,but Midway is not one of
them,there is a consensus among historians that the outcome of Midway is the
product the superior intelligence.
So According to your assertions US intellingence that was unable to recover
enough codes in 12 months prior to Pearl Harbor to read Japanase messages but
After Pearl Harbor US intelligence managed to achive within a few months what
it could not do in one year before PH!.
How did they do that? Maybe now famous outer space aliens helped them to
recover codes after PH?.

By the way people will be happy to know the quote assigned
to Safford (about the number of code groups needed) was
written by someone else, and appears to be related to a
situation in 1943 where units were sending very standardised
messages. Hard to tell exactly given how badly the quote is

Yeah right,His words are irrelevant too.

When did the IJN attack US territory again after 1942?
Where did the new IJN carriers come from?

Replace IJN with OBL,japanese pilots with Atta&Co,replace Japanese planes with
Boeings.

Thanks for admitting the conspiracy people do not match the evidence.

Thanks for admitting the official people do indeed produce the evidence.

h yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

It was no secret that Hull was not very fond of FDR-Stimson-Marshall trios'
plans and also it was very well known that Leib was a close friend of Hull.
The Motive of leakage to Leib was probably to warn Japanase but who knows?

told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

So that means in April 1941,at the latest,US had 10% of the book in the hand.
Can you tell us the percentage of the book available to US on Dec.4,1941?

Or did US stop recovery work in April and started hibernating?