Does anyone use a tug tow hook that releases automatically whenglider kites?

On Tuesday, 11 February 2014 18:41:48 UTC, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:56:33 AM UTC-5, Chris Rollings wrote:



What was needed was a hook that

responded to the vertical component of the load, not the angle at which it

was applied...



This statement defines the starting point, not the ending point.



How about a weather proof calibrated mechanical device placed between the Tost release hook and the tug that pulls the Tost release lever when the vertical component exceeds a limit? There is a well-proven mechanism that does something like that on my downhill ski bindings. A rocket-scientist is not required.



Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any change to the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one need to run?

My statement that an automatic releasing hook was beyond our capabilities refered to the situation over 30 years ago, it is quite possible that technology has moved on a bit since then and it is now possible. It would certainly constiute a modification to the aircraft under UK/European rules, and I strongly suspect ander FAA rules too. As such it would need approval, time consuming and possibly expensive.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:39:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Now don't try to increase the number of "flight reviews" we must endure,
Young Grasshopper.

Due to lax enforcement, flight reviews for glider pilots are already in effect voluntary.

I'm suggesting that pilots who know that their capacities are in decline, might in an ideal world, volunteer for 'early' flight review. I realize that a primary symptom of cognitive decline is an inability to recognize or acknowledge that decline (and irritation with anyone who raises the point).

If that "expert pilot" who nearly killed you on tow, had taken a timely flight review, the whole incident might never had happened.

Experts inevitably grow incompetent over time and some of them continue to fly.

Now I understand your point. That pilot had a lot of type ratings,
airliners and such. He was a neophyte glider pilot who was given the use of
a glider that he had no business flying. Of course, I didn't know that at
the time.


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:39:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Now don't try to increase the number of "flight reviews" we must endure,
Young Grasshopper.

Due to lax enforcement, flight reviews for glider pilots are already in
effect voluntary.

I'm suggesting that pilots who know that their capacities are in decline,
might in an ideal world, volunteer for 'early' flight review. I realize
that a primary symptom of cognitive decline is an inability to recognize or
acknowledge that decline (and irritation with anyone who raises the point).

If that "expert pilot" who nearly killed you on tow, had taken a timely
flight review, the whole incident might never had happened.

Experts inevitably grow incompetent over time and some of them continue to
fly.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:40:08 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
He was a neophyte glider pilot who was given the use of
a glider that he had no business flying.

I would expect most neophyte glider pilots to land soon and inspect for damage after wrapping the tow rope around the wing and jerking loose. You might see why I concluded that this guy had more issues than inexperience in a glider.

His inexperience on tow may have lead to entanglement with the rope, but what reasonable person would elect to fly a potentially damaged aircraft for four hours?

At 22:39 11 February 2014, kirk.stant wrote:


Or, just teach the glider pilot to NEVER lose sight of the towplane, and
to=
immediately release if he does. =20
=20
Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any change
to=
the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one need to
r=
un?

One of the never to be breached rules of aerotowing for a glider pilot in
the UK is "if at any time you loose sight of the tug for ANY reason you are
to pull the release"
If you read Chris's article carefully you may deduce that in the worst case
scenario, the rapid vertical departure of the glider, by the time the
glider pilot realises he has lost sight of the tug, and attempts to pull
the release it is already far to late to make any significant difference to
what is going to happen.

"Our first conclusion was that, in the event of this sequence occurring
accidentally as a result of an inadvertent pitch up by the glider pilot,
there was effectively no chance that either the glider pilot or tow-pilot
would recognise the problem and pull the release in the available time."

It was this very scenario that killed a very good friend of mine who was a
very experienced tug pilot. There are some events that, paradoxically,
require corrective action to commence before onset if they are to be
effective in time to change the outcome.

As for cheap solutions, I am firmly of the view that most wooden gliders
with only CoG hooks should not be aerotowed, those with compromise hooks
should be aerotowed with extreme care.

At 01:21 16 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 22:39 11 February 2014, kirk.stant wrote:


Or, just teach the glider pilot to NEVER lose sight of the towplane, and
to=
immediately release if he does. =20
=20
Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any change
to=
the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one need
to
r=
un?

One of the never to be breached rules of aerotowing for a glider pilot i
the UK is "if at any time you loose sight of the tug for ANY reason you
ar
to pull the release"
If you read Chris's article carefully you may deduce that in the worst
cas
scenario, the rapid vertical departure of the glider, by the time th
glider pilot realises he has lost sight of the tug, and attempts to pul
the release it is already far to late to make any significant difference
t
what is going to happen.

"Our first conclusion was that, in the event of this sequence occurring
accidentally as a result of an inadvertent pitch up by the glider pilot,
there was effectively no chance that either the glider pilot or tow-pilot
would recognise the problem and pull the release in the available time."

It was this very scenario that killed a very good friend of mine who was
very experienced tug pilot. There are some events that, paradoxically
require corrective action to commence before onset if they are to b
effective in time to change the outcome.

As for cheap solutions, I am firmly of the view that most wooden glider
with only CoG hooks should not be aerotowed, those with compromise hook
should be aerotowed with extreme care.



I would add that, although I haven't done the same tests with any glass
gliders, I'm pretty sure that many of the light-weight Standard/15m types
would behave in the same way on a C of G hook. Std Cirrus would be a prime
candidate, would somebody with access to one care to try it at safe
altitude and report the result?

What I find rather sad about the gliding movement is the lack of
willingness to go and get the facts. We have been aware of this problem
for over 35 years, I described flights tests that I carried out, to try to
improve understanding and seek a solution. Has anyone else done the same?

At 08:50 16 February 2014, Chris Rollings wrote:
At 01:21 16 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 22:39 11 February 2014, kirk.stant wrote:


Or, just teach the glider pilot to NEVER lose sight of the towplane,
and
to=
immediately release if he does. =20
=20
Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any
change
to=
the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one nee
to
r=
un?

One of the never to be breached rules of aerotowing for a glider pilot i
the UK is "if at any time you loose sight of the tug for ANY reason yo
ar
to pull the release"
If you read Chris's article carefully you may deduce that in the wors
cas
scenario, the rapid vertical departure of the glider, by the time th
glider pilot realises he has lost sight of the tug, and attempts to pul
the release it is already far to late to make any significant differenc
t
what is going to happen.

"Our first conclusion was that, in the event of this sequence occurring
accidentally as a result of an inadvertent pitch up by the glider pilot,
there was effectively no chance that either the glider pilot or
tow-pilot
would recognise the problem and pull the release in the available time."

It was this very scenario that killed a very good friend of mine who was

very experienced tug pilot. There are some events that, paradoxically
require corrective action to commence before onset if they are to b
effective in time to change the outcome.

As for cheap solutions, I am firmly of the view that most wooden glider
with only CoG hooks should not be aerotowed, those with compromise
hook
should be aerotowed with extreme care.



I would add that, although I haven't done the same tests with any glas
gliders, I'm pretty sure that many of the light-weight Standard/15m type
would behave in the same way on a C of G hook. Std Cirrus would be a
prim
candidate, would somebody with access to one care to try it at saf
altitude and report the result?

What I find rather sad about the gliding movement is the lack o
willingness to go and get the facts. We have been aware of this proble
for over 35 years, I described flights tests that I carried out, to try t
improve understanding and seek a solution. Has anyone else done the
same?


In my opinion more relevant has any one tried these departures from track
with the next generation tugs eurofox to name but one.
We are all used to boxing the wake of a Pawnee and I know the teams
introducing them into clubs are taking a steady measured introduction .
But I don't want to be known as the the guy that killed the tuggie because
I
didn't know what was acceptable .
My apologies to all at YGC for washing in public but this thread stirred my

concerns and I know that when I get to fly behind the fox I will get a
briefing
But as Chris said until you have tested and published the results no one
knows.
Jon

At 10:06 16 February 2014, Jonathon May wrote:
At 08:50 16 February 2014, Chris Rollings wrote:
At 01:21 16 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 22:39 11 February 2014, kirk.stant wrote:


Or, just teach the glider pilot to NEVER lose sight of the towplane,
and
to=
immediately release if he does. =20

Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any
change
to=
the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one nee
to
r=
un?

One of the never to be breached rules of aerotowing for a glider pilot
i
the UK is "if at any time you loose sight of the tug for ANY reason yo
ar
to pull the release"
If you read Chris's article carefully you may deduce that in the wors
cas
scenario, the rapid vertical departure of the glider, by the time th
glider pilot realises he has lost sight of the tug, and attempts to pul
the release it is already far to late to make any significant differenc
t
what is going to happen.



"Our first conclusion was that, in the event of this sequence occurring
accidentally as a result of an inadvertent pitch up by the glider
pilot,
there was effectively no chance that either the glider pilot or
tow-pilot
would recognise the problem and pull the release in the available
time."

It was this very scenario that killed a very good friend of mine who
was

very experienced tug pilot. There are some events that, paradoxically
require corrective action to commence before onset if they are to b
effective in time to change the outcome.

As for cheap solutions, I am firmly of the view that most wooden glider
with only CoG hooks should not be aerotowed, those with compromise
hook
should be aerotowed with extreme care.



I would add that, although I haven't done the same tests with any glas
gliders, I'm pretty sure that many of the light-weight Standard/15m type
would behave in the same way on a C of G hook. Std Cirrus would be a
prim
candidate, would somebody with access to one care to try it at saf
altitude and report the result?

What I find rather sad about the gliding movement is the lack o
willingness to go and get the facts. We have been aware of this proble
for over 35 years, I described flights tests that I carried out, to try
t
improve understanding and seek a solution. Has anyone else done the
same?


In my opinion more relevant has any one tried these departures from track

with the next generation tugs eurofox to name but one.
We are all used to boxing the wake of a Pawnee and I know the teams
introducing them into clubs are taking a steady measured introduction .
But I don't want to be known as the the guy that killed the tuggie
because
I
didn't know what was acceptable .
My apologies to all at YGC for washing in public but this thread stirred
my

concerns and I know that when I get to fly behind the fox I will get a
briefing
But as Chris said until you have tested and published the results no one
knows.
Jon




Jon, I share your concern about the new generation of light-weight
tow-planes, I strongly suspect they will be more vulnerable to upset
accidents. I think that carrying out test like the ones I described should
be a requirement before the authorities approve the type for towing. It
may be possible I'll get the chance to try it out behind a Eurofox later
this year, I'll publish the results here if I do.

On Sunday, February 16, 2014 5:01:24 AM UTC-6, Chris Rollings wrote:
At 10:06 16 February 2014, Jonathon May wrote:

At 08:50 16 February 2014, Chris Rollings wrote:

At 01:21 16 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:

At 22:39 11 February 2014, kirk.stant wrote:





Or, just teach the glider pilot to NEVER lose sight of the towplane,

and

to=

immediately release if he does. =20



Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any

change

to=

the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one nee

to

r=

un?



One of the never to be breached rules of aerotowing for a glider pilot

i

the UK is "if at any time you loose sight of the tug for ANY reason yo

ar

to pull the release"

If you read Chris's article carefully you may deduce that in the wors

cas

scenario, the rapid vertical departure of the glider, by the time th

glider pilot realises he has lost sight of the tug, and attempts to pul

the release it is already far to late to make any significant differenc

t

what is going to happen.







"Our first conclusion was that, in the event of this sequence occurring

accidentally as a result of an inadvertent pitch up by the glider

pilot,

there was effectively no chance that either the glider pilot or

tow-pilot

would recognise the problem and pull the release in the available

time."



It was this very scenario that killed a very good friend of mine who

was



very experienced tug pilot. There are some events that, paradoxically

require corrective action to commence before onset if they are to b

effective in time to change the outcome.



As for cheap solutions, I am firmly of the view that most wooden glider

with only CoG hooks should not be aerotowed, those with compromise

hook

should be aerotowed with extreme care.







I would add that, although I haven't done the same tests with any glas

gliders, I'm pretty sure that many of the light-weight Standard/15m type

would behave in the same way on a C of G hook. Std Cirrus would be a

prim

candidate, would somebody with access to one care to try it at saf

altitude and report the result?



What I find rather sad about the gliding movement is the lack o

willingness to go and get the facts. We have been aware of this proble

for over 35 years, I described flights tests that I carried out, to try

t

improve understanding and seek a solution. Has anyone else done the

same?





In my opinion more relevant has any one tried these departures from track



with the next generation tugs eurofox to name but one.

We are all used to boxing the wake of a Pawnee and I know the teams

introducing them into clubs are taking a steady measured introduction .

But I don't want to be known as the the guy that killed the tuggie

because

I

didn't know what was acceptable .

My apologies to all at YGC for washing in public but this thread stirred

my



concerns and I know that when I get to fly behind the fox I will get a

briefing

But as Chris said until you have tested and published the results no one

knows.

Jon









Jon, I share your concern about the new generation of light-weight

tow-planes, I strongly suspect they will be more vulnerable to upset

accidents. I think that carrying out test like the ones I described should

be a requirement before the authorities approve the type for towing. It

may be possible I'll get the chance to try it out behind a Eurofox later

this year, I'll publish the results here if I do.

Imagine a proximity switch built into the tow hook in the nose of any glider. It could be adjusted in such a way that it senses the larger tow ring position moving down when the glider is kiting. That signal could be hooked up to a warning horn or speech output "Glider too high". I realize that the warning would sound on the ground until the rope is tight. Sensing airspeed above 25 knots would address that problem.
Herb

At 15:37 16 February 2014, wrote:
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 5:01:24 AM UTC-6, Chris Rollings wrote:
At 10:06 16 February 2014, Jonathon May wrote:
=20
At 08:50 16 February 2014, Chris Rollings wrote:
=20
At 01:21 16 February 2014, Don Johnstone wrote:
=20
At 22:39 11 February 2014, kirk.stant wrote:
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Or, just teach the glider pilot to NEVER lose sight of the
towplane,
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and
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Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making
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If you read Chris's article carefully you may deduce that in the
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scenario, the rapid vertical departure of the glider, by the time th
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"Our first conclusion was that, in the event of this sequence
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accidentally as a result of an inadvertent pitch up by the glider
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It was this very scenario that killed a very good friend of mine who
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very experienced tug pilot. There are some events that,
paradoxically
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require corrective action to commence before onset if they are to b
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effective in time to change the outcome.=20
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As for cheap solutions, I am firmly of the view that most wooden
glide=
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with only CoG hooks should not be aerotowed, those with
compromise=20
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should be aerotowed with extreme care.
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I would add that, although I haven't done the same tests with any
glas
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gliders, I'm pretty sure that many of the light-weight Standard/15m
typ=
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would behave in the same way on a C of G hook. Std Cirrus would be
a=
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candidate, would somebody with access to one care to try it at saf
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altitude and report the result?
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What I find rather sad about the gliding movement is the lack o
=20
willingness to go and get the facts. We have been aware of this
proble
=20
for over 35 years, I described flights tests that I carried out, to
try
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improve understanding and seek a solution. Has anyone else done
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In my opinion more relevant has any one tried these departures from
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with the next generation tugs eurofox to name but one.
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We are all used to boxing the wake of a Pawnee and I know the teams=20
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introducing them into clubs are taking a steady measured introduction