Should you tell Tower you're departing IFR

Matt Whiting wrote:




Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

At a class B and C they would because every aircraft that doesn't stay
in the pattern gets a strip of some kind. At a class D tower a VFR
aircraft doesn't normally get a strip.

Newps wrote:



Matt Whiting wrote:




Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some
indication of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.


At a class B and C they would because every aircraft that doesn't stay
in the pattern gets a strip of some kind. At a class D tower a VFR
aircraft doesn't normally get a strip.

Makes sense. I can't remember the last time I flew from a tower in
class D so I'm just not used to tower not knowing my flight plan type.

Matt

Newps wrote:


It doesn't, it helps the tower hide the fact they released an IFR
without a release, which is an operational error.

Laugh Okay. Considering who developed this procedure, what you're writing
doesn't surprise me.

But I suspect that it does help, in that it would be the odd IFR pilot who
could depart w/o a squawk. If the tower cleared me for t/o w/o giving me a
squawk, I'd ask. This forces the particular operator to know that it's an
IFR departure.

No?

- Andrew

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
ups.com...

or should they just know it already?

I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
clearance from ground control.


How much time elapsed between getting your clearance and taxiing for departure?



About 2-3 minutes.


Tower assigned me runway heading (this
was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure.


Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?


Have no idea about that, it's not a familiar airport to me.



I had trouble getting a
word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.


How did you come to be on a 270 vector? Sugarland has only a north-south runway and the tower assigned
runway heading. Who then assigned a west heading and for what purpose?


Hmm, yes, I may have that sequence out of order. I was given the new squawk,
and sometime after that I was asked if I was VFR, but I can't remember if I was
given the vector before or after the VFR question.



Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.


If some time elapsed between issuance of IFR clearance and taxiing for departure ground control may have
forgotten that you were an IFR departure and prepared a new VFR strip for local control. Did you request
taxi right after getting your clearance? If not, did you tell ground you were IFR when you called for taxi?


It was only 2-3 minutes, and I did not tell him I was IFR at taxi time. But it was
45 minutes later when I was finally #1 for departure.


Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
"local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).


Are you sure the code was 0044? The National Beacon Code Allocation Plan assigns codes 0100-0477 to terminal
operations, it doesn't assign the block 0000-0077 to any purpose (which I find rather odd). Since your
flight was entirely within Houston Center you should have been assigned a code from one of ZHU's internal
departure blocks; 45xx, 46xx, or 47xx.

Yes, I am sure about the 0044, I just checked where I had written it on my clipboard.
The original code I was given by ground control was 4553.

Thanks!
John

"Newps" wrote in message ...


Dave Butler wrote:
John Clonts wrote:

snip

Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.

snip

This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU, Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that
happen, and I've never informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.


It's not necessary at a class C or B tower, those facilities are the IFR facility for releasing departures.
It is a nice thing to do at class d towers as they have to get a release from the IFR facility.

Ok, that makes sense! Although I now recall that the other time I had had
something similar happen (i.e. "Are you IFR"), it was departing from Austin
(class C). Oh, well...

Thanks!
John

I have heard enough "Oh...are you IFR?" out of Boeing Field that I
consider a little crap necessary at times.

ATC will occasionally ask you things they want to know, but that isn't
necessarily a suggestion that you should include those things in all
further ATC communications.

I don't see a big difference in the time taken from saying "Ready
for takeoff" to saying "Holding for IFR release".

Making something simple seem obscure. Clearance Delivery gave me my
clearance; all I need from tower is a clearance to takeoff. Tower
needs an "IFR Release" for me, but that's their problem, i.e.,
"Controller Stuff".

If saying that I was holding for an IFR Release had some value, seems
that the AIM would suggest the phraseology.

Andrew Gideon wrote:
Newps wrote:



It doesn't, it helps the tower hide the fact they released an IFR
without a release, which is an operational error.


Laugh Okay. Considering who developed this procedure, what you're writing
doesn't surprise me.

But I suspect that it does help, in that it would be the odd IFR pilot who
could depart w/o a squawk. If the tower cleared me for t/o w/o giving me a
squawk, I'd ask. This forces the particular operator to know that it's an
IFR departure.

No?

Not having a transponder code doesn't mean you aren't IFR. It's simply
a gimmick by the tower to try and prevent an operational error.

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

About 2-3 minutes.


Then the episode appears to be a brain fart on the part of the ground
controller.

On 23 Sep 2005 09:01:56 -0700, "John Clonts" wrote:

or should they just know it already?

I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.

Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.

Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
"local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

You've "told the tower" when you call on the Ground or Clearance delivery
frequency and obtain your clearance (as in "Sugarland Ground, N12345 IFR to
Oshkosh; ready to taxi")

I've never bothered announcing it again when I switch to tower frequency,
nor have I ever heard anyone else doing that at a variety of airports in
different airspaces (KASH - class D; KBOS - class A; KMHT - class C; KBGR -
class C).

And yes, controllers at all facilities will sometimes forget that you're
IFR; or be uncertain as to your destination; etc. If that's a frequent
occurrence at the facilities you deal with, it would seem to me that a call
to that facilities QA officer would be in order.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)