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#111
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there... Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact and a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win. But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea... -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
#112
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 17, 10:45 am, "William Black"
wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ... I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. Ken Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there... Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact and a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win. But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea... Mr. Black I won't play what if, instead Hitlers little nazi history bible directed him to attack the commies, (for english sake), and follow frozen Nappy. Ken |
#113
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... On Mar 17, 10:45 am, "William Black" wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ... I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. Ken Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there... Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact and a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win. But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea... Mr. Black I won't play what if, instead Hitlers little nazi history bible directed him to attack the commies, (for english sake), and follow frozen Nappy. Ken Erm - thats what he did , see Operation Barbarossa. Keith |
#114
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message ... On Mar 17, 10:27 am, Chris wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. Chris Manteuffel Also, as in the situation during the Battle of Britain, the idea is to kill Germans and if the British submarines take losses it is for the final result, repelling the German invasion. The submarines can sink or disable the tow boats. Actually submarines would be a poor choice for that role. My betting is that the RN submarines would be skulking around German ports looking for targets of opportunity. There were plenty of light forces operating out of channel ports that could kill tow boats and barges. Keith |
#115
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 17, 3:08*pm, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote: "Jack Linthicum" wrote in message ... On Mar 17, 10:27 am, Chris wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. Chris Manteuffel Also, as in the situation during the Battle of Britain, the idea is to kill Germans and if the British submarines take losses it is for the final result, repelling the German invasion. The submarines can sink or disable the tow boats. Actually submarines would be a poor choice for that role. My betting is that the RN submarines would be skulking around German ports looking for targets of opportunity. There were plenty of light forces operating out of channel ports that could kill tow boats and barges. Keith Nothing like a torpedo launcher at the opening in the nets. |
#116
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them elsewhere. Peter Skelton |
#117
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 17, 11:56 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ... On Mar 17, 10:45 am, "William Black" wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ... I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. Ken Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there... Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact and a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win. But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea... Mr. Black I won't play what if, instead Hitlers little nazi history bible directed him to attack the commies, (for english sake), and follow frozen Nappy. Ken Erm - thats what he did , see Operation Barbarossa. Keith You know, to this day, I don't know whether Hitler sucker punched Stalin or Stalin suckered him in and unloaded a bunch of army's he didn't want. Anyway, overall the Brits nailed Nazi's using airforce, and Stalin nailed them using army's. My remark about the Brit's is from Speers accounts, they were able to burn cities as good as an A-bomb, and did create a 2nd front, in the air. Ken |
#118
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 17, 4:31*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them elsewhere. Peter Skelton I still say a spread across the opening in the anti-submarine nets as the first tow boat emerges would put a major bend in the German desire to finish the game. Just make an explosive noise somewhere a head of the bulk of the force. |
#119
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:31:00 -0400, Peter Skelton
wrote: On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them elsewhere. Peter Skelton Wouldn't it take a particularly stupid admiral to try and use subs as an invasion barge escort? Also, while barges were a critical lift, there were also a fair number of larger, coastal trade vessels that would have to be pressed into service to carry the heavy stuff, including supplies of fuel. These would have made fine targets for RN subs. The U-Boat force would not be messing around with barges in the Channel. They'd be setting up to intercept the Home Fleet as it came south to "welcome" the invasion force. Remember, too, the old saw: Amatuers study tactics; professionals study logistics. There is no way the KM could have protected the sea lift necessary to make any invasion possible. Of course we see these things with the aid of 20/20 hindsight. At the time I suspect there was more "fog of war" involved in decision making. |
#120
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 17, 4:31*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The barges + tugs certainly weren't, but there would be a fair number of coasters and the like that would certainly detonate a torpedo if hit. And in a Sealion scenario, I can see putting everything the RN has out there for the fight. No sense in giving the Germans even a 1% chance of success... Chris Manteuffel |
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