F-86 and sound barrier

(John Bailey) wrote in message ...
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, VH wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force? Is
Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?


The USAF likes to cover up everything and they are very good at it.
But answering your question- an emphatic "No" will suffice.
It was the Luftwaffe that broke Mach 1 back in the closing days of
WW2. Check out the Wright Patterson Official Manual on Flying the
Me-262 (circa 1946). It says that the Me-262 can break the sound
barrier in a shallow dive. So either one of the captured 262s flown by
a US pilot broke Mach 1 or the information came from German sources in
1945. Anyway, the official manual precedes Yeager's official flight-
fact.
As a matter of fact, in the US, according to various sources Yeager
was actually the 4th man to break Mach 1.
You might want to look into Project Blue Book also, another US
document. In the preface there is mention that the only machines
capable of flight like the UFOs being investigated at the time were "
certain developments of the Third Reich in the closing months of the
war". Certainly they are NOT comparing a superagile, gravity defying
UFO disc with a Me-262. It is obvious that Germany pioneered some
revolutionary aircraft at the close of the war and that what the US
recovered in material and/or documents (also from Wright Patterson)
has led throughout 6 decades to the strange enigmatic discs and black
triangles flying today. That's why German disc aircraft information
remains highly classified and wont be declassified until 2020- a full
75 years after WW2.
What does that tell you about how honest the USAF is and how
historically accurate aviation history is?

Rob

On 22 Sep 2003 09:55:54 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

The USAF likes to cover up everything and they are very good at it.
But answering your question- an emphatic "No" will suffice.
It was the Luftwaffe that broke Mach 1 back in the closing days of
WW2. Check out the Wright Patterson Official Manual on Flying the
Me-262 (circa 1946). It says that the Me-262 can break the sound
barrier in a shallow dive. So either one of the captured 262s flown by
a US pilot broke Mach 1 or the information came from German sources in
1945. Anyway, the official manual precedes Yeager's official flight-
fact.

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88, the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

The highest speed ever attained by the F-80 was Mach 0.92, and it had a lower
drag coefficient than the 262. Hell, the 262 didn't even have a laminar flow
wing! Moreover, that slight degree of wing sweep was added simply for CG
purposes.

Unlike the XP-86, the Me 262 wasn't capable of even coming close to Mach 1.
Neither was the Me 163.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

It was the Luftwaffe that broke Mach 1 back in the closing days of
WW2.

Strange, no one in the Luftwaffe claimed it - unless you count everyone's
favorite oddball, Dr. Mutke - who also claims that the Me 262 he defected in is
actually *his* personal property!

Check out the Wright Patterson Official Manual on Flying the
Me-262 (circa 1946).

Have it. It has one paragraph that is open to the interpretation you prefer -
but they also had plenty of compressibility reports, tuck under events, and
other bits that told them something was happening at a bit over 1,000 kph.
Still, they never claimed to have broken Mach 1. Wind tunnel experiments and
pilot anecdotes show the airframe, more specifically, the engine nacelles and
wings, are incapable of exceeding .84. But if a single paragraph is enough to
convince you of a non-event, not much I can say that would change your mind.
Still, I think it speaks volumes that no one in Germany, officially or
unofficially, claimed to have exceeded Mach 1, until fifty years after the
"event". I accept that the postwar Pilot's Manual has a problematic mention of
transonic flight - that doesn't suggest how, when, or where such an event could
have, or did, occur. Even Messerschmitt made no such claim. My opinion, worth
as much as yours, is that engineers explained the many high speed crashes and
near-fatal events associated with compressibility as transonic events - by
1945-46, most test pilots and aeronautical engineers knew that the 'barrier'
was there and its no stretch to assume crashes, and near crashes, during very
high speed flight, were the result of teasing the barrier. Re-read the
paragraph with that info in mind, and its not so damning.

Or, do it my way and interview countless Me 262 pilots from fighter,
nightfighter, bomber, and test units, add in US and British test pilots, and
see if even ONE suggests that the Me 262 could power itself to Mach 1. It
can't, and nothing you can say will change that blunt-nose Jumo OO4B into a
transonic-capable engine. No air = no thrust = no possible transonic event,
unless you believe you can achieve it in a glider.

It says that the Me-262 can break the sound
barrier in a shallow dive. So either one of the captured 262s flown by
a US pilot broke Mach 1 or the information came from German sources in
1945.

....and German sources used wind tunnel data, not just pilot reports. Also, you
are leaving out the possibility that the "mystery Mach 1 aviator" was not a
Brit test pilot - who had more flights on captured German jets than we did.
Matters not - of the three RAF test pilots that I have talked to, none suggest
the Me 262 was capable of anything over Mach .84, dive or no dive.

Anyway, the official manual precedes Yeager's official flight-
fact.

That arcane reference mentions no date, circumstance, or method of proving its
single statement. As far as proof, one completely unsubstantiated comment is
rarely adequate to be considered "proof".

This has been gone over in minute detail by the guys at Stormbirds.com as well
as other Me 262 websites and Mutke's claim is not accepted by anyone that flew
with him, or flew the Me 262. His mates laugh at him, literally.


What does that tell you about how honest the USAF is and how
historically accurate aviation history is?

You paint with such a broad brush that its hard to see where to start with
correcting your claims. I'll stick with this one: you cannot show any proof
that an Me 262 broke the speed of sound, beyond that single note in a 60 year
old book that doesn't give enough information to check the comment in any way.
Tell me which German (or American) pilot took an Me 262 transonic? If you
can't, its just a really neat, but unproven, sea story. That doesn't count as
"historically accurate aviation history" either, does it?

Gordon

Or, do it my way and interview countless Me 262 pilots from fighter,
nightfighter, bomber, and test units, add in US and British test pilots, and
see if even ONE suggests that the Me 262 could power itself to Mach 1.

Schuck, Busch, Czypionka, Becker, Rudorffer, Neppach, Hans-E Bob, several
others, plus several others on the German side; all meet comments about Mutke
and Mach 1 with a sigh and a sad shake of their heads.

Here's an idea - take an F-4 to .98, kill the engines, then enter a dive and
tell me if you go transonic. If you can't, then explain to me how an Me 262,
with FLAT engine intakes and no consideration made to provide airflow at Mach
1, could do the feat?

Gordon

"Corey C. Jordan"
There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88, the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

Hell, a CF-100 Mk-1 clunk broke the sound barrier in 1951! I wonder if
the F89 or F94, the CF100 contemporaries could do this?? Anyway, aren't the
Yanks or Russians first at everything! Hollywood claims they are so it must
be true!

Ed

Hell, a CF-100 Mk-1 clunk broke the sound barrier in 1951! I wonder if
the F89 or F94, the CF100 contemporaries could do this?? Anyway, aren't the
Yanks or Russians first at everything! Hollywood claims they are so it must
be true!

Ed


Hi Ed

You are out by a year and a later version of the aircraft.

Jan Zurakowski became the first person to exceed Mach 1 in a straight
wing aircraft with out the aid of rocket power. He was flying an Avro
Canada CF-100 Mk.4B Canuck (not Clunk as is affectionately known as)
R.C.A.F. serial number 18112.

Standard procedure for a pilot to achieve Mach 1, was to dive the CF-100
straight down from FL 450 at full power. The CF-100 was very marginal
in the supersonic breakthrough. It depended largely on aerodynamic
cleanliness of each individual aircraft whether it would break the sound
barrier. The CF-100 would hardly ever surpass Mach 1.05.

As for the Northrop F-89 Scorpion and Lockheed F-89 Starfire, only the
F-89C Starfire could exceed Mach 1 in a shallow dive.

Cheers...Chris

"Corey C. Jordan" wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep 2003 09:55:54 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

The USAF likes to cover up everything and they are very good at it.
But answering your question- an emphatic "No" will suffice.
It was the Luftwaffe that broke Mach 1 back in the closing days of
WW2. Check out the Wright Patterson Official Manual on Flying the
Me-262 (circa 1946). It says that the Me-262 can break the sound
barrier in a shallow dive. So either one of the captured 262s flown by
a US pilot broke Mach 1 or the information came from German sources in
1945. Anyway, the official manual precedes Yeager's official flight-
fact.

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88, the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

But Corey, you lied about Copp, so why would anyone at ram ever believe you
again?

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88, the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

But Corey, you lied about Copp, so why would anyone at ram ever believe you
again?

How about me? I don't know Copp from Copralite, but I _know_ that the Me 262
was a subsonic airframe with subsonic engines.

Gordon

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:33:37 -0700, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:

Snipped botched lobotomy induced drivel....

I thought California was restricting internet access at State institutions.
Guess they haven't gotten to Tarver's ward yet....

I recently read a newspaper story about a Jackass that wandered away from
a petting zoo and was struck by some dork doing 120 mph in a WRX.

Figured he was still in the hospital....

I wonder if Tarver even knows what a WRX is? I'm pretty sure he can't spell it.

Finally, is this a relative of your's Tarver?

From Annanova.com:
"A student cut off his own penis and his tongue after drinking an infusion of
the latest drugs craze to sweep Germany.

The 18-year-old, only named as Andreas W, from Halle in Germany drank a tea made
with the hallucinogenic angels' trumpet plants.

His mother said: "Andreas was behaving normally the whole day until he left the
house and disappeared into the garden for a couple of minutes."

When he returned to the house he was wearing a towel wrapped around him and was
bleeding heavily from his mouth and between his legs.

The emergency doctor who arrived a few minutes later said the student had cut
off his penis and his tongue with garden shears and it was impossible to
reattach the organs."

I ask because you have a lot in common, including not being able to talk about
getting laid....

5 little known facts about Tarver:

5) His favorite pickup line is; "hey babe, your place or my moms?"
4) His greatest moment of clarity arrived and all he could say was, "Someone
pull this wolverine off my nutsack!"
3) Chuck Yeager stopped by to see his simulator, but figured he didn't want to

sit in another AN-AL-2003 certified Cambodian fart basket.
2) Tarver is really a cranky South L.A. Korean grocer.
1) The inside of his hat smells like someone cured a Christmas ham in it.


Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

Hi all,

The 'Welch/Yeager' argument conveniently ignores the NAA flight records for the
period in question. Either Blackburn didn't have these for his book or chose to
ignore them, but they clearly detail Welch's undercarriage problem on October
1, 1947 and also detail the redesign necessary prior to the next flight with
the undercarriage functioning. To suggest that NAA had to bolt the gear down to
prevent Welch going supersonic is ridiculous.

Incidentally, Blackburn also conveniently neglects to include the fact that
Welch had a P-82 chase for the first flight; it would have been difficult (not
to say crass) for Welch to sneak off and break the sound barrier with a chase
craft trying to determine the damage caused by the undercarriage malfunction
which happened during climb-out on flight number 1.

Much as I love the F-86, it wasn't first to Mach 1. There is (and always has
been) no subsitute for good research.

Duncan