no instrument flight

points. I cringe when I find the altimeters in the club two-seat ships
I fly set to zero (QFE) instead of field elevation - because the
implication is that our club instructors and students are using the
altimeter as a crutch in the pattern.

We cannot set QFE and we scorn the eastern flat landers who come out here
and try that.
Our field elevation is to high to set the altimeter down to zero. And if you
set it to zero, how do you know you are remaining clear of the overhead
Class B Shelf or 9KMSL Mode C limitation (US 14CFR91.215). And if you are
going cross country, how do you know the elevation other than by visual
reference that you can clear the next mountain. Plus if you go cross
country, you can't always know the ground elevation that you are landing on,
so the altimeter is useless once committed.

BT

Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote:

No airspeed and/or altimeter training is essential.


I agree with this, but ...

From personal
experience (2000+ glider hours in both rental and private gliders) you
WILL eventually lose the use of either of these instruments inflight -
and it should be absolutely no big deal!


...suppose you always flew gliders with a redundant altimeter that read
AGL? Would it be proper for the pilot to refer to this during landing?
Would he be safer overall, even if his "that looks about right" skills
faded a bit?

A lot of us have this redundant, AGL readout altimeter in our cockpits
already: it's a PDA running a program like SeeYou or Winpilot.

I have two mechanical altimeters in my cockpit - one in feet - always set to QNH
on take off. Once away from the field, in accordance with the regulations that
gets set to 1013Mb and used to report altitude.

Being a metrically indoctrinated mathematically challenged and mentally limited
XC pilot. I have tried to find ways to use the second altimeter to make my XC
easier and safer.
My experience is that the other one is a great aid for it is a metres alti, and
is generally set at QFE of my launch point. (this one does go to zero even at
4740" MSL...)

This gives me my working height very easily.
Add or subtract the terrain difference of target from launch (usually negligible
where I fly)
Subtract the height we want above ground for safety.
Each Km on the metres altimeter is 1x whatever I have set my Mc to in range. If
you want to you can even move the secondary so that it shows your desired target
altitude as zero - removing the mental arithmetic. Easy, fast access to
information, no electronic dependancy.

So on a reasonable XC in my Cirrus it is very simple to get to 27km range from
1km working height. For a typical final glide to my home field that is
4740+1000+3300 feet = 9040" on QFE, but the typical winter pressure altitude is
off by +500 to -800" so my feet altimeter will be showing anywhere between ~8200
and 9500".

The PDA+LX20 then gives me a computerised reality check - (assuming that there
have been no electronics failures)If what it is saying, and what my mental
arithmetic is saying differ substantially I know it is time to be careful and
start checking to find the mistake. Having the second altimeter (metric or
imperial) means you have less mistakes to make. Having the second altimeter in
metres, improves safety - I am never confused as to what information it is
giving me. If the Altimeter says feet it is altitude - always. If it says metres
it is working height - always.

Caveats -
1] this does not work very well when there is a large pressure gradient across
the are you cover. This is why the GPS altitude is very useful as a check.
2] If you are flying in mountainous terrain, the feet altitude of the terrain is
more significant than the working height (this only works well when there is no
solid stuff in your "working height")
3] If you are more comfortable with miles, then this is not likely to help much.

On your comment of eventually meeting a situation where you do not have full
instruments.

For what it is worth - Even with a normal complement of two varios, two
altimeters and a GPS/PDA, I have once had the experience of zero working
instrumentation. LX20 in Slovenia for calibration + one standard issue large bug
in the static line == no vario, no ASI, no altitude, half way up the winch
launch. Landing a little over an hour later was a little more cautious than
normal, I would not have wanted to do this in a field. I did land a little fast
and about 100m further past the threshold for safety - you don't want to get
slow in the landing with an early Cirrus... Finding and extracting the bug was a
lot more work.

wrote:
Now, the airspeed indicator .... once
airborne, it really isn't a big deal - especially with some practice
and familiarity with the glider.

Not if it fails on a winch launch! Mine worked enough to show a flifker
on the ground, but stuck after I rotated. This got my attention,
particularly as the launch then felt slow (though of course I had no way
of checking). I think my decision to climb less steeply was the right
one - even if you're overspeeding on the winch, at a reduced angle of
attack you're less likely to do any damage and can always release if
it's clear from the sound and feel that you're really motoring.

Once I was in free flight, the circuit and landing were no problem,
especially as I know the aircraft well.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..

"Shawn" sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet wrote in message
. ..
Robert Bruce wrote:
It might an old message, but I ran across it and would
encourage instructors and those who haven't to at least
experience two flights with no reference to instruments,
at least to pattern altitude. Learn to use the wind
noise and pitch attitude on a glider you know well.
One of the more rewarding aspects of glider flight
is getting away from the knobs and dials and reading
the winds, feeling the thermals in your butt, etc.
Even in the most advanced sailplanes. It also makes
one a better pilot and more confident. When I have
a student that is at the last stage before solo and
they appear to be having trouble with the landing,
most of the time it is instrument fixation, and these
flights right before solo are perfect for zero instruments.
They can do it and it's a great confidence builder.
You'll be in the back seat keeping a watchful eye
as the instructor pilot.

there have been many off field landings and off the
end of the pavement landings that likely could have
been avoided if this 'oneness' with the aircraft were
stressed more in our training. I believe the SSF does
support this position and use of 'instrument failure'
as part of the teaching syllabus. They have a fine
web site very useful to CFIs anywhere.

Why not begin instruction with both ASI and Alt. covered, until final
prep for solo? If the ship has instruments in the back for the
instructor, to meet the minimum equipment list, I don't see a down-side.
No crutchs, no bad habits.
Thoughts?

Shawn

I've done this more and more lately. With the insutrments covered,
students don't have anything to look at inside the cockpit so they look
outside - at things like pitch attitude, bank, other traffic and their
position relative to the gliderport. I suggest they gently raise the nose
until the glider shakes and makes funney noises and then lower it a little
until it flies smoothly. Maneuvers are made at this pitch attitude.

Stalls are just learning to recognize the shakes and funny noises and then
that if the nose is raised further, the glider will get really unhappy and
drop the nose and maybe a wing.

Landings are just lowering the nose a little from the min sink speed to
make the glider a bit noisier at the IP and fly the pattern holding this
noise level while constantly watching the angle to the runway. On final,
they just fly the same noisey airspeed right down to a foot above the
runway, level off with their eyes on the far end of the runway and wait
patiently until the glider lands itself.

Beginning students almost always do better with instruments covered. I
don't remove my Sporty's instrument covers from the airspeed and altimeter
until prepping the student for the checkride. By then they regard
instruments as interesting amd maybe even useful but by no means
neccessary for safe flight.

If I get a student from another school who is having problems, the first
thing is to pull out the Sporty's instrument covers. More often than not,
this cures the problem - neither the other instructor or the student
realized the problem was tunnel vision on the airspeed indicator.

Bill Daniels

Bill, by doing this you drastically improve the quality and confidence
of the pilots you graduate. As a 30 year CFI, I've gotten a few pilots with
this type of training, and I've gotten a lot of them that have not yet
received it, then it becomes my job. The ones that get this early invariably
do better, from 150's to Learjets, and particularly when we get to
instrument flying. They transfer that "outside" attitude inside. I am
convinced that this is one of the best "gifts" you can give your students.
May they pass it on.

Al G CFIAMI 2069297

I have done this to all my students prior to solo. Almost every time,
their speed control improves by not chasing the airspeed indicator. It
is a great confidence booster for the student and instructor. At
least you know your student is not going to panic if it happens in real
life. With all the bugs in summer, it does happen from time to time in
real life.


Al wrote:
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..

"Shawn" sdotherecurry@bresnannextdotnet wrote in message
. ..
Robert Bruce wrote:
It might an old message, but I ran across it and would
encourage instructors and those who haven't to at least
experience two flights with no reference to instruments,
at least to pattern altitude. Learn to use the wind
noise and pitch attitude on a glider you know well.
One of the more rewarding aspects of glider flight
is getting away from the knobs and dials and reading
the winds, feeling the thermals in your butt, etc.
Even in the most advanced sailplanes. It also makes
one a better pilot and more confident. When I have
a student that is at the last stage before solo and
they appear to be having trouble with the landing,
most of the time it is instrument fixation, and these
flights right before solo are perfect for zero instruments.
They can do it and it's a great confidence builder.
You'll be in the back seat keeping a watchful eye
as the instructor pilot.

there have been many off field landings and off the
end of the pavement landings that likely could have
been avoided if this 'oneness' with the aircraft were
stressed more in our training. I believe the SSF does
support this position and use of 'instrument failure'
as part of the teaching syllabus. They have a fine
web site very useful to CFIs anywhere.

Why not begin instruction with both ASI and Alt. covered, until final
prep for solo? If the ship has instruments in the back for the
instructor, to meet the minimum equipment list, I don't see a down-side.
No crutchs, no bad habits.
Thoughts?

Shawn

I've done this more and more lately. With the insutrments covered,
students don't have anything to look at inside the cockpit so they look
outside - at things like pitch attitude, bank, other traffic and their
position relative to the gliderport. I suggest they gently raise the nose
until the glider shakes and makes funney noises and then lower it a little
until it flies smoothly. Maneuvers are made at this pitch attitude.

Stalls are just learning to recognize the shakes and funny noises and then
that if the nose is raised further, the glider will get really unhappy and
drop the nose and maybe a wing.

Landings are just lowering the nose a little from the min sink speed to
make the glider a bit noisier at the IP and fly the pattern holding this
noise level while constantly watching the angle to the runway. On final,
they just fly the same noisey airspeed right down to a foot above the
runway, level off with their eyes on the far end of the runway and wait
patiently until the glider lands itself.

Beginning students almost always do better with instruments covered. I
don't remove my Sporty's instrument covers from the airspeed and altimeter
until prepping the student for the checkride. By then they regard
instruments as interesting amd maybe even useful but by no means
neccessary for safe flight.

If I get a student from another school who is having problems, the first
thing is to pull out the Sporty's instrument covers. More often than not,
this cures the problem - neither the other instructor or the student
realized the problem was tunnel vision on the airspeed indicator.

Bill Daniels

Bill, by doing this you drastically improve the quality and confidence
of the pilots you graduate. As a 30 year CFI, I've gotten a few pilots with
this type of training, and I've gotten a lot of them that have not yet
received it, then it becomes my job. The ones that get this early invariably
do better, from 150's to Learjets, and particularly when we get to
instrument flying. They transfer that "outside" attitude inside. I am
convinced that this is one of the best "gifts" you can give your students.
May they pass it on.

Al G CFIAMI 2069297

I have had an ASI failure in flight. A few hundred
feet up on an aerotow launch, I glanced at the instruments
and noticed that the ASI was reading 20 knots and slowly
falling. Realising that neither the tug nor the glider
were capable of flying at this speed, although they
were clearly doing so quite happily, I knew that it
had to be an instrument failure.

It was a very hot day, and the glider had been standing
out in the sun for several hours. What we subsequently
found had happened was that the plastic pipe leading
to the ASI had softened in the heat and slowly slipped
off the back of the pitot tube.

I decided to continue the aerotow, so I would have
some time to sort the problem out. The ASI continued
to drop until it was reading zero! Once off tow, I
slowly pulled the nose up until the pre-stall buffet
set in, so I then knew the stalling attitude. The type
of glider I was flying featured a large amount of washout
and I knew that the wingtips started bending down at
about 75 knots, so I slowly lowered the nose until
this happened. I then knew the attitudes between which
a reasonable speed could be maintained. BTW it was
a vintage glider, not mine, and I had only flown it
a couple of times before.

As it was quite a nice day, I soared quite happily
for a couple of hours, and even flew a short cross-country
flying by attitude alone. When I came into land, I
set the trimmer approximately central and flew a circuit
that would give me about a half brake approach. The
landing turned out to be a non-event, although I floated
a bit further than normal as the approach probably
erred a bit on the fast side.

I know of at least two other occasions where pilots
have suffered instrument failures and have managed
to cope with it.

Del Copeland


At 02:00 07 July 2006, Joe wrote:
I have done this to all my students prior to solo.
Almost every time,
their speed control improves by not chasing the airspeed
indicator. It
is a great confidence booster for the student and instructor.
At
least you know your student is not going to panic if
it happens in real
life. With all the bugs in summer, it does happen
from time to time in
real life.

Derek Copeland wrote:
I have had an ASI failure in flight. A few hundred
feet up on an aerotow launch, I glanced at the instruments
and noticed that the ASI was reading 20 knots and slowly
falling. Realising that neither the tug nor the glider
were capable of flying at this speed, although they
were clearly doing so quite happily, I knew that it
had to be an instrument failure.

snip story

I know of at least two other occasions where pilots
have suffered instrument failures and have managed
to cope with it.

My first flight in a 1-34 had an ASI failure. I radioed the tow pilot
to fly along next to me at a reasonable pattern speed to get a feel for
the proper attitude to fly the pattern. Seemed to help. Did a few
stalls to see how far up the nose needed to be before I got into
trouble. I also recalled Tom Knauf's comment about how very few gliders
will stall under normal flight conditions (i.e. not accelerated stalls)
with the nose below the horizon. Probably landed a little hot, but
all's well...

Shawn

Why are we talking about this as an emergency practice? Its really not,
maybe I should have bailed out of my Nimbus 3 because I lost all
instruments and the yaw string, then proceeded to go XC! This is
standard practice in training, at least it should be. If a student is
chasing an airspeed indicator, they don't get it anymore. If they
call off an altitude without looking outside they don't get an
altimeter anymore. I fly 2-33's and I don't have instruments in the
back, no big deal, can't see the front with an "average" male
American sitting in the front seat anyway.

The local club has a Blanik that they would approach at Mach 1, because
the ASI said 55knts!!! It didn't even dawn on them that it may be off.
A leak in the pitot system was found. But everyone was too interested
in what the needle pointed to vs. where the nose was pointed. After my
first pattern tow I bet a club member it was off, but they weren't
foolish enough to take it.

Yaw sting....if you cant feel your body sliding left or right when your
uncoordinated, you should probably relax some, because you are way too
uptight. But then again one of my coaches said I was too relaxed. On
that note my Discus 2ax didn't have a yaw sting, and my Nimbus 3
doesn't have one either, and I probably won't get it "fixed" before the
Opens. I fly in the mountains and I don't feel that it is hazardous.
Plus that sting is way too much drag.

If your "eye ball gauge" is getting rusty, maybe you should take
the time with your flight instructor on your next flight review to work
on it, perhaps even earlier. But then again we could always just wing
it and let it get worse over time.

I flew without a yaw string once in a two-place ship
that the owner thought the mechanical T+B was better.
Thermalling and the such were okay, but I certainly
missed not having it as an input in the pattern. If
everything was going according to plan...I could live
without it. In a tight situation I would want information
from it.

At 06:42 08 July 2006, G L I D E R S T U D wrote:

Yaw sting....if you cant feel your body sliding left
or right when your
uncoordinated, you should probably relax some, because
you are way too
uptight. But then again one of my coaches said I was
too relaxed. On
that note my Discus 2ax didn't have a yaw sting, and
my Nimbus 3
doesn't have one either, and I probably won't get it
'fixed' before the
Opens. I fly in the mountains and I don't feel that
it is hazardous.
Plus that sting is way too much drag.

I defy anyone to 'feel' the tiny amount of yaw that
a yaw string will indicate. The drag created by even
the largest piece of wool will be very small compared
to even a small amout of yaw in straight and level
flight. A 'T&S' ball is just not sensitive enough and
the yaw string has the advantage of being in your eye
line, you don't have to go heads down to see it. To
fly efficiently in a big winged glider is is even more
essential as even tiny amoutns of control differences
are magnified with the addition leverage of long wings.