Russian Carrier Plans Part One

Bill Kambic wrote:

:On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:04:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
:Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
:been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
:free from what I could see.
:
:
:The long term Russian goal has been reliable warm water ports. During
:WWII were there not periods where Murmask could not be used due to
:ice?
:

I don't believe so. In fact, after the disaster with PQ-17, a lot
more convoys were scheduled for the winter because the darkness made
them harder to find and attack.

Convoys went to Murmansk in winter because Archangel was icebound. The
Gulf Stream keeps Murmansk ice free year round.

:
:IIRC Vladovostok is mostly ice free, but not strategically well
:situated.
:

Vladivostok is mostly ice free.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

In article ,
says...
tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: , says...
: :
: : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : water ports.
: :
: :
: :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: :
:
: Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: as false.
:
:Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
:narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
:

This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
until in open ocean.

Hardly.
Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
close.

If the Russians didn't think Vladivostok was adequate they wouldn't have
gone to all the trouble of getting Port Arthur.


:
:One of which has a bit of bad karma when it comes to the Russian
:Fleet...
:
:Murmansk has a bit of a problem with year round access too.
:

Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
free from what I could see.

They have to resort to icebreakers to keep it open year round.

tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: : , says...
: : :
: : : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : : water ports.
: : :
: : :
: : :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: : :
: :
: : Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: : Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: : not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: : as false.
: :
: :Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
: :narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
: :
:
: This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
: for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
: until in open ocean.
:
:Hardly.
:Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
:close.
:

If they want to get sunk by the Russians they can try that.

:
:If the Russians didn't think Vladivostok was adequate they wouldn't have
:gone to all the trouble of getting Port Arthur.
:

Yeah, so New York must not be an adequate port since we went to all
the trouble to have others.

:
:
: :
: :One of which has a bit of bad karma when it comes to the Russian
: :Fleet...
: :
: :Murmansk has a bit of a problem with year round access too.
: :
:
: Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
: been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
: free from what I could see.
:
:They have to resort to icebreakers to keep it open year round.
:

Wrong.

Icebreakers operate out of Murmansk, right enough, but they're not
required to keep Murmansk open.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
says...
tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: : , says...
: : :
: : : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : : water ports.
: : :
: : :
: : :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: : :
: :
: : Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: : Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: : not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: : as false.
: :
: :Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
: :narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
: :
:
: This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
: for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
: until in open ocean.
:
:Hardly.
:Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
:close.
:

If they want to get sunk by the Russians they can try that.

The Soviets couldn't bar the USN from the Sea of Oshkosh when they had a
huge navy. What makes you think the Russians can now ?



:
:If the Russians didn't think Vladivostok was adequate they wouldn't have
:gone to all the trouble of getting Port Arthur.
:

Yeah, so New York must not be an adequate port since we went to all
the trouble to have others.

I see you intend to ignore history and just be silly.


: :
: :One of which has a bit of bad karma when it comes to the Russian
: :Fleet...
: :
: :Murmansk has a bit of a problem with year round access too.
: :
:
: Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
: been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
: free from what I could see.
:
:They have to resort to icebreakers to keep it open year round.
:

Wrong.

Icebreakers operate out of Murmansk, right enough, but they're not
required to keep Murmansk open.

So it is.
My mistake.

tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: : : , says...
: : : :
: : : : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : : : water ports.
: : : :
: : : :
: : : :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: : : :
: : :
: : : Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: : : Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: : : not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: : : as false.
: : :
: : :Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
: : :narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
: : :
: :
: : This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
: : for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
: : until in open ocean.
: :
: :Hardly.
: :Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
: :close.
: :
:
: If they want to get sunk by the Russians they can try that.
:
:The Soviets couldn't bar the USN from the Sea of Oshkosh when they had a
:huge navy. What makes you think the Russians can now ?
:

Oshkosh is in Wisconsin, you idiot!

Must be where you get your clothes - Oshkosh, b'gosh!

I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.

:
:
: :
: :If the Russians didn't think Vladivostok was adequate they wouldn't have
: :gone to all the trouble of getting Port Arthur.
: :
:
: Yeah, so New York must not be an adequate port since we went to all
: the trouble to have others.
:
:
:I see you intend to ignore history and just be silly.
:

Just matching you.

:
: : :
: : :One of which has a bit of bad karma when it comes to the Russian
: : :Fleet...
: : :
: : :Murmansk has a bit of a problem with year round access too.
: : :
: :
: : Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
: : been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
: : free from what I could see.
: :
: :They have to resort to icebreakers to keep it open year round.
: :
:
: Wrong.
:
: Icebreakers operate out of Murmansk, right enough, but they're not
: required to keep Murmansk open.
:
:So it is.
:My mistake.

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Fred J. McCall wrote:
tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: : : , says...
: : : :
: : : : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : : : water ports.
: : : :
: : : :
: : : :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: : : :
: : :
: : : Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: : : Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: : : not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: : : as false.
: : :
: : :Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
: : :narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
: : :
: :
: : This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
: : for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
: : until in open ocean.
: :
: :Hardly.
: :Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
: :close.
: :
:
: If they want to get sunk by the Russians they can try that.
:
:The Soviets couldn't bar the USN from the Sea of Oshkosh when they had a
:huge navy. What makes you think the Russians can now ?
:

Oshkosh is in Wisconsin, you idiot!

Must be where you get your clothes - Oshkosh, b'gosh!

I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.

Russia isn't that trigger happy We used to spin a Tin can within 4,000
yards of their shore lines to check their responses.. And they were
fast. ;-p Same **** in Alaska.. They used to send a wing of fighters
into the Dewline from Siberia in a fast flyover and back to check out
our responses. I don't recall us ever shooting any of them down either.

:
:
: :
: :If the Russians didn't think Vladivostok was adequate they wouldn't have
: :gone to all the trouble of getting Port Arthur.
: :
:
: Yeah, so New York must not be an adequate port since we went to all
: the trouble to have others.
:
:
:I see you intend to ignore history and just be silly.
:

Just matching you.

:
: : :
: : :One of which has a bit of bad karma when it comes to the Russian
: : :Fleet...
: : :
: : :Murmansk has a bit of a problem with year round access too.
: : :
: :
: : Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
: : been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
: : free from what I could see.
: :
: :They have to resort to icebreakers to keep it open year round.
: :
:
: Wrong.
:
: Icebreakers operate out of Murmansk, right enough, but they're not
: required to keep Murmansk open.
:
:So it is.
:My mistake.

In article ,
says...
tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: : : , says...
: : : :
: : : : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : : : water ports.
: : : :
: : : :
: : : :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: : : :
: : :
: : : Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: : : Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: : : not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: : : as false.
: : :
: : :Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
: : :narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
: : :
: :
: : This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
: : for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
: : until in open ocean.
: :
: :Hardly.
: :Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
: :close.
: :
:
: If they want to get sunk by the Russians they can try that.
:
:The Soviets couldn't bar the USN from the Sea of Oshkosh when they had a
:huge navy. What makes you think the Russians can now ?
:

Oshkosh is in Wisconsin, you idiot!

Must be where you get your clothes - Oshkosh, b'gosh!

Ohh a speeling flam

The Sea of Okhotsk

But then you knew that.


I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.

Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
Vladivostok....

tankfixer wrote:

:In article ,
says...
: tankfixer wrote:
:
: :In article ,
: says...
: : tankfixer wrote:
: :
: : :In article ,
: : says...
: : : tankfixer wrote:
: : :
: : : :In article ,
: : : says...
: : : : tankfixer wrote:
: : : :
: : : : :In article a86ec029-67d2-48c9-916b-4fd3b945b993
: : : : , says...
: : : : :
: : : : : Now you're trying to tell us that Russia has NO shipyards and no deep
: : : : : water ports.
: : : : :
: : : : :
: : : : :None with ready access to the worlds oceans.....
: : : : :
: : : :
: : : : Sorry, but you need to buy a map. Once you do, find Murmansk and
: : : : Vladivostok. Unless you maintain that the Atlantic and Pacific are
: : : : not part of "the worlds [sic] oceans" your comment above stands shown
: : : : as false.
: : : :
: : : :Funny how to transit out of Vladivostok you have to pass through fairly
: : : :narrow straits not under the control of Russia.
: : : :
: : :
: : : This pretty well applies to any port anywhere, if someone is waiting
: : : for you. If they go north they can stay in waters controlled by them
: : : until in open ocean.
: : :
: : :Hardly.
: : :Go north and they go straight to choke points the JSDF and USN can
: : :close.
: : :
: :
: : If they want to get sunk by the Russians they can try that.
: :
: :The Soviets couldn't bar the USN from the Sea of Oshkosh when they had a
: :huge navy. What makes you think the Russians can now ?
: :
:
: Oshkosh is in Wisconsin, you idiot!
:
: Must be where you get your clothes - Oshkosh, b'gosh!
:
:Ohh a speeling flam
:

Sorry, but that's why beyond 'spelling'.

:
:The Sea of Okhotsk
:

Yeah, and when the Russians rolled into Baltimore at the end of WWII
....

Oh, wait. I misspelled 'Berlin'.

:
:But then you knew that.
:

No, you were far enough off I didn't even want to hazard a guess as to
what you were talking about.

You do realize that the Sea of Okhotsk is surrounded by RUSSIAN land,
right? No sane US admiral would take a force up there during active
hostilities.

:
:
: I'm not sure precisely what you have in mind, but the size of Russia's
: Navy has nothing to do with it. You're close enough inshore so that
: airplanes will blow your ass off if you try to sit in there.
:
:
:Yes, that is the problem the Russian face in trying to get out of
:Vladivostok....
:

Except most of it is RUSSIAN land...


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:04:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
free from what I could see.

Doesn't Murmansk benefit from the last of the Gulf Stream?

Casady

(Richard Casady) wrote:

:On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:04:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
:Don't tell them that. They go in and out of there year round. I've
:been up there in October and November and it all looked pretty ice
:free from what I could see.
:
oesn't Murmansk benefit from the last of the Gulf Stream?
:

Exactly. The flow breaks up over the top of Scandinavia and Murmansk
gets benefit from that. The water isn't warm, but it isn't frozen.

It's why Murmansk stays open in the winter while Archangel, which is
much further south, ices in.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer