Airplane Ownership

Sigh. This will be my last response to you in this mini-thread, so
have the last word if it makes you happy.

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

Absolutely not. I'm sure most of the folks asking questions here have
$100,000 in cash lying around to purchase an Aztec so that they don't
need a loan (for which insurance *is* generally mandatory).

Again you're off on "most" (even though a specific person was asking
for help originally). Why not just say "Everyone should get a C-172"
and be done with your sage advice?

I never said that. The original poster asked *specifically*

"Anyone here buy their own airplane to do their training in before
being
licensed? I am a glider pilot transitioning to power. Any
suggestions/recommendations, advice, cautions? Thanks in advance."

That was her question. And I answered it based on my experiences. The
most 'reasonable' choice in an airplane that would allow her to finish
her training, do some reasonably useful stuff after her ticket, and
develop her piloting skills would be something like a 172 or a
Musketeer. Not an Aztec. Something that 'makes sense' for the next
five years. *Very* very few people end up flying an Aztec within 5
years after getting their tickets. Many, many people end up flying a
172.

I told her that the advice I found most useful was 'buy for the next 5
years, not the next 30.' You may disagree with that advice. But that
doesn't change the fact that I found it useful.

I told her about my experience buying a Musketeer shortly after
getting my private license. Your experience is obviously different.
Nothing wrong with letting her see both side...but there is *also*
nothing wrong with pointing out what will be, by far, the most likely
situation within the next couple of years. That scenario (as borne out
by the statistics about who flys what kids of planes, who buys what
kinds of planes, the stuff from the AOPA on pilot flying habits, etc.)
is that she will be developing her skills, possibly adding a couple
additional ratings, and doing some reasonable traveling. That scenario
is best served (IMO) by something like a 172 or Cherokee.


Some of your *own* statements are pretty inconsistent. In one post you
say:

"I think it's important to decide early whether you're going to
eventually want something more than a "trainer". (which I strongly
disagree with, BTW...very few people know where they will be in five
years in terms of flying, especially when they are just training. I
know as many pilots who ended up quitting slying within five years as
who ended up doing any real travelling.)

But then one post later, in response to my statement regarding
continued pilot training you said:

"How do you know? *I* certainly didn't.

So, which is it? Is it 'important' to know what your flying will be in
five years, or is it so 'difficult to know' that you have to ask 'How
can you know'?

Tying that togerther with the original poster, it makes sense to act
in a way that will protect your investment, and give you opportunities
to do things you 'probably' will do. Buying a 172, Musketeer or
Cherokee will do both. You are not taking a huge financial gamble, you
are buying a versatile plane that allows both training and reasonable
touring, and you are putting yourself in a position to (definitely)
make your learning experiences more enjoyable and (probably, if you
fly enough) to save some money. I reiterate my advice from the first
post: buy a plane for the next five years, not the next thirty. When a
student asks me about this, I tell them that if they can afford to
purchase a plane like a 172 or a Musketeer (many good examples of both
are available for under $35,000), then they can make their training
both more enjoyable and more practial buy buying such a plane.

The advice that goes with buying any plane applies, especially the
part about getting a *very* good pre-buy inspection.

)


And I'm
sure those people have *no* other assets that they might wish to try
to protect via insurance. Probably applies to 3/4 of all pilots,
right?

Doesn't apply to me. Don't care.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

Really? What were they?

Oh! You didn't read the part that I quoted in my response. That
does explain some of the confusion.

Here it is again.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,


Are you this literal on everything? I was suggesting that over the
next few years she would be developing her flying skills, *probably*
picking up an instrument ticket. if the lack of the word 'probably'
bothers you so much, I'm really, really sorry it disturbed you. Sigh.

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

Indeed. I fully expect that in a year or two a 60-hour Private Pilot
can get some top-flight Citation Insurance for $30 a year. Any day
now.

Are you implying that it's not cyclical or are you again discounting my
experience of getting insurance for an Aztec as a new Private Pilot?


It is cyclincal to some extent (mostly based on bond yields), but I
would be surprised if we saw the kind of insurance that allowed a new
private pilot to fly (unsupervised)something like an Aztec. I'd love
to see that again...but I doubt we will. I'm not discounting your
experience. I am just saying that, today, it is very unlikely that it
would be replicated.

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

Well, maybe since I was responding to the original poster who asked a
reasonable question demaning a reasonable answer, perhaps that is a
good thing, given your response. Perhaps it isn't useful to you.
Hopefully it was to him.

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it's based on false assumptions.

--kyler

No. No false assumptions. Sorry you perceived it that way, but either
way, I was just trying to communicate to the original poster some
useful information regarding her original question, and responding to
some points you made.

Cheers,

Cap

Sigh. This will be my last response to you in this mini-thread, so
have the last word if it makes you happy.

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

Absolutely not. I'm sure most of the folks asking questions here have
$100,000 in cash lying around to purchase an Aztec so that they don't
need a loan (for which insurance *is* generally mandatory).

Again you're off on "most" (even though a specific person was asking
for help originally). Why not just say "Everyone should get a C-172"
and be done with your sage advice?

I never said that. The original poster asked *specifically*

"Anyone here buy their own airplane to do their training in before
being
licensed? I am a glider pilot transitioning to power. Any
suggestions/recommendations, advice, cautions? Thanks in advance."

That was her question. And I answered it based on my experiences. The
most 'reasonable' choice in an airplane that would allow her to finish
her training, do some reasonably useful stuff after her ticket, and
develop her piloting skills would be something like a 172 or a
Musketeer. Not an Aztec. Something that 'makes sense' for the next
five years. *Very* very few people end up flying an Aztec within 5
years after getting their tickets. Many, many people end up flying a
172.

I told her that the advice I found most useful was 'buy for the next 5
years, not the next 30.' You may disagree with that advice. But that
doesn't change the fact that I found it useful.

I told her about my experience buying a Musketeer shortly after
getting my private license. Your experience is obviously different.
Nothing wrong with letting her see both side...but there is *also*
nothing wrong with pointing out what will be, by far, the most likely
situation within the next couple of years. That scenario (as borne out
by the statistics about who flys what kids of planes, who buys what
kinds of planes, the stuff from the AOPA on pilot flying habits, etc.)
is that she will be developing her skills, possibly adding a couple
additional ratings, and doing some reasonable traveling. That scenario
is best served (IMO) by something like a 172 or Cherokee.


Some of your *own* statements are pretty inconsistent. In one post you
say:

"I think it's important to decide early whether you're going to
eventually want something more than a "trainer". (which I strongly
disagree with, BTW...very few people know where they will be in five
years in terms of flying, especially when they are just training. I
know as many pilots who ended up quitting slying within five years as
who ended up doing any real travelling.)

But then one post later, in response to my statement regarding
continued pilot training you said:

"How do you know? *I* certainly didn't.

So, which is it? Is it 'important' to know what your flying will be in
five years, or is it so 'difficult to know' that you have to ask 'How
can you know'?

Tying that togerther with the original poster, it makes sense to act
in a way that will protect your investment, and give you opportunities
to do things you 'probably' will do. Buying a 172, Musketeer or
Cherokee will do both. You are not taking a huge financial gamble, you
are buying a versatile plane that allows both training and reasonable
touring, and you are putting yourself in a position to (definitely)
make your learning experiences more enjoyable and (probably, if you
fly enough) to save some money. I reiterate my advice from the first
post: buy a plane for the next five years, not the next thirty. When a
student asks me about this, I tell them that if they can afford to
purchase a plane like a 172 or a Musketeer (many good examples of both
are available for under $35,000), then they can make their training
both more enjoyable and more practial buy buying such a plane.

The advice that goes with buying any plane applies, especially the
part about getting a *very* good pre-buy inspection.

)


And I'm
sure those people have *no* other assets that they might wish to try
to protect via insurance. Probably applies to 3/4 of all pilots,
right?

Doesn't apply to me. Don't care.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

Really? What were they?

Oh! You didn't read the part that I quoted in my response. That
does explain some of the confusion.

Here it is again.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,


Are you this literal on everything? I was suggesting that over the
next few years she would be developing her flying skills, *probably*
picking up an instrument ticket. if the lack of the word 'probably'
bothers you so much, I'm really, really sorry it disturbed you. Sigh.

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

Indeed. I fully expect that in a year or two a 60-hour Private Pilot
can get some top-flight Citation Insurance for $30 a year. Any day
now.

Are you implying that it's not cyclical or are you again discounting my
experience of getting insurance for an Aztec as a new Private Pilot?


It is cyclincal to some extent (mostly based on bond yields), but I
would be surprised if we saw the kind of insurance that allowed a new
private pilot to fly (unsupervised)something like an Aztec. I'd love
to see that again...but I doubt we will. I'm not discounting your
experience. I am just saying that, today, it is very unlikely that it
would be replicated.

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

Well, maybe since I was responding to the original poster who asked a
reasonable question demaning a reasonable answer, perhaps that is a
good thing, given your response. Perhaps it isn't useful to you.
Hopefully it was to him.

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it's based on false assumptions.

--kyler

No. No false assumptions. Sorry you perceived it that way, but either
way, I was just trying to communicate to the original poster some
useful information regarding her original question, and responding to
some points you made.

Cheers,

Cap