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#11
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
That's a lot of math to try to acomplish during an NDB approach.
Sounds like you are measuring it with a micrometer and cutting it with an axe. You need much simpler personal guidelines when you take this stuff into the cockpit. I don't accomplish this math during an NDB approach. I accomplish it here, once, on the ground. Now I have a rule-of-thumb (established at 10 degrees) to carry with me on all NDB approaches. Jose -- He who laughs, lasts. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#12
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:38:04 +0000, Peter
wrote: Bill Zaleski wrote When within 10 degrees of the published course. That's not a lot, since NDBs can be anything up to 30 degrees off, IME. My local one certainly can be; it's on a coast (SHM at EGKA). But that IAP is also DME-based. An NDB is to a shotgun, as an ILS is to a rife with a scope. It's a let down to an area of probability at a safe, conservative altitude. |
#13
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
An NDB is to a shotgun, as an ILS is to a rife with a scope.
Well, yes, but they =are= designed with numbers. Jose -- He who laughs, lasts. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#14
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
Jose wrote: What is the protected area under an NDB approach course? Since the course guidance is cruder than an ILS, I'd expect it would be wider, but how much wider? I ask also in the context of when I should consider myself "established" on course (for purposes of descent). If, when reaching the MAP, you are in the same city as the airport you count yourself luck. -Robert |
#15
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
Sam Spade wrote:
When within 10 degrees of the published course. There is no policy or rule to support that. Yeah, the FAA is so incredibly disfunctional that it is literally possible to have a 'properly' (meaning in accordance with TERPS) designed approach flown 'correctly' (meaning to the level required to pass the instrument rating ride as per the PTS) with functional (meaning working well enough to pass the mandated operational checks) equipment, and still slam yourself into something. Check out the LVJ VOR-B. Michael |
#16
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
-----Original Message----- From: Robert M. Gary ] Posted At: Friday, January 19, 2007 12:20 PM Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr Conversation: How wide is an NDB approach course? Subject: How wide is an NDB approach course? .... If, when reaching the MAP, you are in the same city as the airport you count yourself luck. -Robert I realize a lot of the responses are written in humor, but lest some of the younger readers get the wrong impression - it is still possible to properly execute an NDB approach and safely arrive if the weather is above published minimums. Hundreds of pilots flew LF range and NDB approaches for many years without killing themselves or their passengers. Just because the technology has advanced to what we have today with WAAS GPSs and XM weather and roll-steering autopilots doesn't mean that the old NDB approach is inherently unsafe. I believe the unsafe aspect of the system is the lack of training in modern curriculums and our lack of practice with the equipment. |
#17
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
Within 10deg is pretty simple guidance in my book!
Bill Zaleski wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 04:57:04 GMT, Jose wrote: [You're established inbound on an NDB] When within 10 degrees of the published course. There is no policy or rule to support that. Taking Sam Spade's TERPs quote, The primary area is longitudinally centered on the FAC, and is 10 miles long. The primary area is 2.5 miles wide at the facility, and expands uniformly to 6 miles wide at 10 miles from the facility. I draw a little diagram, and find that the angle along the outside of the primary area to be atan(((6/2)-(2.5/2))/10) = atan(7/40) = 10 degrees. So, ten degrees from the facility puts me 2.5 miles inside the protected area. Sounds good to me. Start on down. Jose That's a lot of math to try to acomplish during an NDB approach. Sounds like you are measuring it with a micrometer and cutting it with an axe. You need much simpler personal guidelines when you take this stuff into the cockpit. |
#18
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
I believe the unsafe aspect of the system is the lack of training in
modern curriculums and our lack of practice with the equipment. This reminded me of a useful training aid that I've put together some time ago. It is a known fact that any AM radio station can serve as a radio beacon that an ADF can be tuned to. AM radio stations are everywhere, unlike real NDB transmitters, and they are just as good for practicing NDB work as any NDB. So, I have downloaded a list of AM-transmitting antenna from FCC, along with their lat/lon, callsign, and output power, and transformed it into a google-earth file. Then I zoomed-in on the area of my interest in google-earth, and printed the map with the stations. Very handy for NDB practice. Here's a link to the google-earth file containing all AM-transmitting antenna within 1000km radius of NYC: http://tinyurl.com/35rdez If anyone wants such a file for some other part of the US, just let me know, and I'll generate it and put it online. Andrey |
#19
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
Andrey Serbinenko wrote:
I believe the unsafe aspect of the system is the lack of training in modern curriculums and our lack of practice with the equipment. This reminded me of a useful training aid that I've put together some time ago. It is a known fact that any AM radio station can serve as a radio beacon that an ADF can be tuned to. AM radio stations are everywhere, unlike real NDB transmitters, and they are just as good for practicing NDB work as any NDB. So, I have downloaded a list of AM-transmitting antenna from FCC, along with their lat/lon, callsign, and output power, and transformed it into a google-earth file. Then I zoomed-in on the area of my interest in google-earth, and printed the map with the stations. Very handy for NDB practice. Here's a link to the google-earth file containing all AM-transmitting antenna within 1000km radius of NYC: http://tinyurl.com/35rdez If anyone wants such a file for some other part of the US, just let me know, and I'll generate it and put it online. That is pretty neat. Yes, I used 1490 in Wellsboro for practice at N38. It isn't exctly aligned with the runway, but is close and we made up a little home-made approach for practice. It worked well. Matt |
#20
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How wide is an NDB approach course?
Matt Whiting writes:
That is pretty neat. Yes, I used 1490 in Wellsboro for practice at N38. It isn't exctly aligned with the runway, but is close and we made up a little home-made approach for practice. It worked well. I think the NDB concept was deliberately designed with this in mind, so that ordinary radio stations could be used for emergency navigation in a pinch. The frequency range is the same as AM radio, and I hardly think that a coincidence. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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