Israel Threatens to Hit Damascus-Next step of A Clean Break?:

Robert Kolker wrote:

Humaneness is the Jewish Death Wish.

Quite possibly. The thing that I find remarkable about the way in
which the Arab-Israeli conflict is viewed internationally is the
extreme restraint that Israel has shown towards nations that want to
literally annihilate the Israeli people, and the way in which the
international community nevertheless puts all the blame on Israel. If
the Israelis had simply driven out the Arabs from conquered lands and
never let them come back back in 1967, this would not be the case --
there would have been an outcry at the time, which would long since
have been forgotten under the press of more recent news.

- Jordan

Jordan wrote:


dontcowerfromthetruth wrote:
Keep in mind (when reading the following) that Syria has supposedly
made some sort of defense pact with Iran.

Syria and Iran have made an explicit, open defense pact.

So is attacking Damascus the
way the Zionists will expand the war for Israel to Syria and Iran next
(in accordance with the 'A Clean Break' agenda that esteemed
intelligence writer/author James Bamford discusses on pages 261-269/321
of his 'A Pretext for War' book - see the URL about such included after
the following) as Bush and Cheney have already said that the US would
come to Israel's aid if Israel is attacked which will most likely
happen if Israel gets into it with Syria and Iran:

Well damn, it would be _nice_ if this happened -- it would get the war
with Syria and Iran out into the open and put a powerful ally on our
side. Plus, Israel could smack around Syria, maybe bite off another
chunk of their territory, keeping the Syrians occupied while we took
out the Iranian regime. If, that is, we're ready for it.

I don't know though that the timing of this is entirely or at all under
Israeli control. Remember that this all started because Hamas, feeling
its oats as the new government of "Palestine," has decided to continue
to step up terrorist operations against Israel, apparently not fully
grasping that _as the government_ these are much more clearly
Palestinian acts of war against Israel.

I don't think that the Palestinians have much of a concept of
self-government. In fact, I don't think that Arabs in general, or many
of the other tribal groups in "Chaos-Stan" have much ability to govern
themselves.

The history of the Middle East seems to be one LONG litany of endless
war between tribes and the rise and fall (usually by assassination or
coup) of strongmen, warlords, and other various potentates with absolute
power. "Government" in the Mideast (excepting Israel) seems to consist
of kissing the ass of the guy with the biggest gun/sword and doing what
he says, even when his words cause massive death and destruction.

This is not a new problem-Muhammad's main goal in spreading Islam was to
give the eternally warring tribes of Arabia a universal touchstone that
would supersede tribal and warlord loyalties. It worked for about a
hundred years, then the empire broke apart and tribes started killing
each other again. I'm not a huge fan of Israel, but they have done in a
hundred years what their Arab counterparts have NEVER done-produce a
unified, stable governing system.

The "countries" in the Mideast have been described as "tribes with
flags" by Thomas Friedman. This has become painfully apparent in Iraq,
where Bush simply assumed that once the oppressive dictator (Saddam) was
removed that people would join hands and sing kumbayah and produce a
stable democracy without much US help. Instead, they've reverted to the
old tribal defaults, and started killing each other with renewed vigor.
It's clear that the Iraq Shi'a regard Sadr as their strongman, and are
willing to slaughter Sunnis in Sadr's name.

If the US national govt was wiped out, Americans would likely establish
some sort of democratic replacement eventually. It might take a while,
but they would. If the Iraqi, or the Saudi, or the Afghan, or the
Syrian, etc national govts were destroyed, you'd have all out civil war
within a month, and in Iraq's case within 48 hours. That civil war would
last for YEARS, until the cities looked like Beirut in 1985, and it is
highly doubtful that any of those countries would ever exist again in
any meaningful form. The only way that they would is if some warlord
managed to conquer the entire territory, as the Taliban did in
Afghanistan, and set himself up as president.

I also don't see why all this would be to the Israeli advantage, unless
this is combined with a long-term plan to drive the Palestinians out of
Gaza and the West Bank. I _hope_ that it is, but I greatly fear that
the Israelis still imagine peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians
possible -- they've been pursuing that mirage for a very long time now.

I don't think that's possible, at least not in today's geopolitical
climate. If the Israelis made a concerted effort to clean out Palestine,
the whole world (except the US) would jump all over them and make them
stop. I don't think that the Israelis can successfully set up a govt in
Palestine either, for the reasons that I mentioned. The best outcome
would be to persuade Egypt to take back the Gaza Strip and Jordan to
reclaim the West Bank. But I should note that when Sadat offered peace
in exchange for Sinai, he told Israel that it could keep Gaza. Jordan
has disavowed the West Bank. Both countries are more than happy to dump
the mess in Israel's lap and let the Israelis deal with it. I think that
if the Arab world really wanted to help Palestine, they'd take it back
and resettle the Palestinians in their own countries. But the
Palestinians are really just chess pawns in a game to destroy Israel, a
goal that is a mirage. Instead, the Arabs have created the ultimate
dysfunctional society-Pitcairn Island writ large and 100 times worse.
The Arabs created the Palestinian monster in the hopes that it would eat
Israel, but Israel is a bitter dish compared to the Arabs themselves.
Now the monster has joined hands with the Hizbullah monster and
threatens to eat EVERYBODY, Israelis, Arabs, Americans, everybody.

Though I do think that it's likely that Israel will emerge from this
First Terrorist War that began in 2001 with a stronger position
vis-a-vis the Islamic world

I don't think that Israel can invade Lebanon and win. They tried before,
and failed. I think the same about Palestine.


Sincerely Yours,
Jordan

PS - I know full well that you meant this to be alarming and ominous.
However, I'm rather pro-Israeli, and see it as a good development for
the world if Israeli power grows.


Power corrupts, but compared to Arab chaos, Israeli rule looks rather
attractive.

running dogg wrote:


Power corrupts, but compared to Arab chaos, Israeli rule looks rather
attractive.

The Isrealis really do not want to rule the middle east. Israel's only
chance of long term survival is reaching a non-belligerant modus vivendi
with its neighbors. As recent events have shown, this is not going to
happen. The Moslems are ****ing out of their minds. I think Israel is
going to be destroyed in the next ten years. But they will take a big
chunk out of their Moslem neighbors when they go down. Think of blind
Sampson in the Temple of Dagon.

The U.S. might give refuge to a small fraction of the Jews who survive
Israel's destruction. The Orthodox will, of course, say we told you so.
No Israel until the Moisheach ben David comes. The Europeans will shed
crockodile tears over the destruction of Israel and the Moslems of
Europe will rejoice and be encouraged. Countries like France and Germany
will soon be in the fight of their lives with there internal Moslem
population. Just wait.

Bob Kolker

Robert Kolker wrote:

running dogg wrote:


Power corrupts, but compared to Arab chaos, Israeli rule looks rather
attractive.

The Isrealis really do not want to rule the middle east. Israel's only
chance of long term survival is reaching a non-belligerant modus vivendi
with its neighbors. As recent events have shown, this is not going to
happen. The Moslems are ****ing out of their minds. I think Israel is
going to be destroyed in the next ten years. But they will take a big
chunk out of their Moslem neighbors when they go down. Think of blind
Sampson in the Temple of Dagon.

I don't think that Israelis will go quietly, even after the cities are
vaporized. Some of the survivors will head to the mountains and wage
guerrilla war against the "triumphant" Muslims. The settlers that live
will turn their already fortified kibbutzes into stockades with remnants
of Israel's arsenal and fight off the Muslims. I don't think that the
area will ever be completely "liberated" from a Jewish presence. You'd
need an organizational structure comparable to the Nazi death machine to
wipe out 5 million people, and you'd need compliant people like the
European Jews. The Muslims will have neither. Look how hard it has been
for the US to get the Taliban out of the Afghan mountains. Now imagine
US trained and equipped (even if no new weapons are sent, there will be
a considerable stockpile) Jews who know the area like the back of their
hand fighting against Muslim forces who are disorganized and corrupt at
best. The US can't quell the Iraqi insurgency even though we have the
best army on the planet.


The U.S. might give refuge to a small fraction of the Jews who survive
Israel's destruction. The Orthodox will, of course, say we told you so.
No Israel until the Moisheach ben David comes. The Europeans will shed
crockodile tears over the destruction of Israel and the Moslems of
Europe will rejoice and be encouraged. Countries like France and Germany
will soon be in the fight of their lives with there internal Moslem
population. Just wait.

The US is Israel's biggest cheerleader. The pleas to give refuge to Jews
from Israel coming from the Jewish community in America will be too
great to ignore, and SOME Jews will be resettled here. But not every Jew
will want to leave, even if the area is permanently radioactive. You
underestimate the Jews' ties to that land. Some will fight forever, even
if their babies are being born with horrifying deformities, even if
they're dying of leukemia, even if their food and water is tainted.

running dogg wrote:
Robert Kolker wrote:

running dogg wrote:


Power corrupts, but compared to Arab chaos, Israeli rule looks rather
attractive.

The Isrealis really do not want to rule the middle east. Israel's only
chance of long term survival is reaching a non-belligerant modus vivendi
with its neighbors. As recent events have shown, this is not going to
happen. The Moslems are ****ing out of their minds. I think Israel is
going to be destroyed in the next ten years. But they will take a big
chunk out of their Moslem neighbors when they go down. Think of blind
Sampson in the Temple of Dagon.

I don't think that Israelis will go quietly, even after the cities are
vaporized. Some of the survivors will head to the mountains and wage
guerrilla war against the "triumphant" Muslims. The settlers that live
will turn their already fortified kibbutzes into stockades with remnants
of Israel's arsenal and fight off the Muslims. I don't think that the
area will ever be completely "liberated" from a Jewish presence. You'd
need an organizational structure comparable to the Nazi death machine to
wipe out 5 million people, and you'd need compliant people like the
European Jews. The Muslims will have neither. Look how hard it has been
for the US to get the Taliban out of the Afghan mountains. Now imagine
US trained and equipped (even if no new weapons are sent, there will be
a considerable stockpile) Jews who know the area like the back of their
hand fighting against Muslim forces who are disorganized and corrupt at
best. The US can't quell the Iraqi insurgency even though we have the
best army on the planet.


The U.S. might give refuge to a small fraction of the Jews who survive
Israel's destruction. The Orthodox will, of course, say we told you so.
No Israel until the Moisheach ben David comes. The Europeans will shed
crockodile tears over the destruction of Israel and the Moslems of
Europe will rejoice and be encouraged. Countries like France and Germany
will soon be in the fight of their lives with there internal Moslem
population. Just wait.

The US is Israel's biggest cheerleader. The pleas to give refuge to Jews
from Israel coming from the Jewish community in America will be too
great to ignore, and SOME Jews will be resettled here. But not every Jew
will want to leave, even if the area is permanently radioactive. You
underestimate the Jews' ties to that land. Some will fight forever, even
if their babies are being born with horrifying deformities, even if
they're dying of leukemia, even if their food and water is tainted.

---Please stop cross-posting this OT thread to SHWI.

Thank you,

Noel

running dogg wrote:
Robert Kolker wrote:
running dogg wrote:
Power corrupts, but compared to Arab chaos, Israeli rule looks rather
attractive.

The Isrealis really do not want to rule the middle east. Israel's only
chance of long term survival is reaching a non-belligerant modus vivendi
with its neighbors. As recent events have shown, this is not going to
happen. The Moslems are ****ing out of their minds. I think Israel is
going to be destroyed in the next ten years. But they will take a big
chunk out of their Moslem neighbors when they go down. Think of blind
Sampson in the Temple of Dagon.

I don't think that Israelis will go quietly, even after the cities are
vaporized. Some of the survivors will head to the mountains and wage
guerrilla war against the "triumphant" Muslims. The settlers that live
will turn their already fortified kibbutzes into stockades with remnants
of Israel's arsenal and fight off the Muslims.

Shut off their electricity, water, food, medicine, you know, the old Gaza
treatment.

I don't think that the
area will ever be completely "liberated" from a Jewish presence. You'd
need an organizational structure comparable to the Nazi death machine to
wipe out 5 million people, and you'd need compliant people like the
European Jews.

Send them back to Europe where they came from.

--
If the a href="http://www.ussliberty.org"attack on the Liberty/a was a
mistake, it is possible to mistake OJ Simpson for Britney Spears in broad
daylight.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3649
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
commentary http://www.giwersworld.org/opinion/running.phtml a5

Jordan wrote:
Robert Kolker wrote:


Humaneness is the Jewish Death Wish.


Quite possibly. The thing that I find remarkable about the way in
which the Arab-Israeli conflict is viewed internationally is the
extreme restraint that Israel has shown towards nations that want to
literally annihilate the Israeli people, and the way in which the
international community nevertheless puts all the blame on Israel. If
the Israelis had simply driven out the Arabs from conquered lands and
never let them come back back in 1967, this would not be the case --
there would have been an outcry at the time, which would long since
have been forgotten under the press of more recent news.

- Jordan

So the removal of some 2,000,000 arabs from Palestine in 1947/48 to set
up the Jewish State has nothing to do with this?

Ricardo
--
"Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice, and fear, walk hand in hand ..."

Ricardo wrote:


So the removal of some 2,000,000 arabs from Palestine in 1947/48 to set
up the Jewish State has nothing to do with this?

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had as much to do with this "removal" as
did the Jews who founded the State of Israel. Many Arab speaking Muslims
and Christians removed themselves on the expectation and devout hope
that the Jews would be shortly wiped out or driven from the region. It
didn't work out that way. Sorry about that. Losing a war is such a bitch.

Bob Kolker

Robert Kolker wrote:
Ricardo wrote:


So the removal of some 2,000,000 arabs from Palestine in 1947/48 to
set up the Jewish State has nothing to do with this?


The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had as much to do with this "removal" as
did the Jews who founded the State of Israel. Many Arab speaking Muslims
and Christians removed themselves on the expectation and devout hope
that the Jews would be shortly wiped out or driven from the region. It
didn't work out that way. Sorry about that. Losing a war is such a bitch.

Bob Kolker

I wasn't taking sides, merely making an historical observation. Think of
it in terms of what you now call 'Native Americans' driving you off
their tribal homelands from which they were forcibly removed and
resettling them, and then bombing American cities when you tried to get
it back. At least the Native Americans have more moral right to do that
than the Israelis do with what they claim to be 'their' land.

Ricardo

--
"Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice, and fear, walk hand in hand ..."

Robert Kolker wrote:
Ricardo wrote:

So the removal of some 2,000,000 arabs from Palestine in 1947/48 to
set up the Jewish State has nothing to do with this?

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had as much to do with this "removal" as
did the Jews who founded the State of Israel. Many Arab speaking Muslims
and Christians removed themselves on the expectation and devout hope
that the Jews would be shortly wiped out or driven from the region. It
didn't work out that way. Sorry about that. Losing a war is such a bitch.

So what is the problem with kicking out a bunch of foreigners from Europe who
came to Palestine with the openly expressed intention of murdering Palestinians?
And as they started terrorist bombings Palestinians markets in the early 1930s
there was no reason to keep the foreigners around.

As "removing themselves" that zionist lie has been long exposed even by Israeli
historians so please do not try to work it in sideways.

As for losing a war, the ONLY people who have never been formally at war with
the European foreigners is the Palestinians.

Bobbie, grow up and learn to face reality and stop hiding like a child behind
zionists lie to salve your atheist conscience. EVERYONE knows they are lies.
When you repeat them people pity your wounded conscience.

--
It is not antisemitic to criticize Israel.
It is antisemitic to effectively criticize Israel.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3645
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Blame Israel http://www.ussliberty.org a10