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#11
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The Osprey Goes to War
If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away. BB Saying that the V-22 will rendesvous with the Cobras at the LZ violates the KISS principle. And it is just ridiculous on its face. It is saying that we can predict what the enemy will do and that is always nuts. No one can guarantee that there won't be a threat en route. It is just nuts to plan that way. And STILL it means that the V-22's operational radius is no greater than the Cobra escorts. The concept of the V-22 was flawed from the first day it was discussed for carrying grunts. It is the best (or worst) example of the Military-Industrial-Complex I know. Walt |
#12
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The Osprey Goes to War
On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:
BlackBeard wrote: On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote: *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than the survivability systems on the CH-46 SNIP If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away. BB Is the Cobra really the only possible escort? I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the high speed transit phase. Roger- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't supress a treeline the way a Cobra can. I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's what you've seen me post: 1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is limited to the range and speed of the escorts 2. The V-22 needs guns of its own, and not one that fires backwards either. If the rotors are tilted forward then no door gunner can get a useful firing arc forward due to the arc of the rotors. 3. A chin turret was discussed (being the only reasonable option) but that was eliminated due to cost. I remember seeing this info in the MCG about 25 years ago. The freaking thing is a grotesque boondoggle. It will never be anything else. I posted a video of a V-22 crash and some of the info I am posting now on the website togetherweserved.com, which is for Marines only, and I was banned within 24 hours. Walt |
#13
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The Osprey Goes to War
Walt writes:
If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away. BB Saying that the V-22 will rendesvous with the Cobras at the LZ violates the KISS principle. And it is just ridiculous on its face. It is saying that we can predict what the enemy will do and that is always nuts. No one can guarantee that there won't be a threat en route. It is just nuts to plan that way. And STILL it means that the V-22's operational radius is no greater than the Cobra escorts. The concept of the V-22 was flawed from the first day it was discussed for carrying grunts. It is the best (or worst) example of the Military-Industrial-Complex I know. Hmm, in practice the way to analyse a system (whether a military, or financial trading system) where the future is never known but is bet on anyway because the alternative is to stand aside and do nothing, is to see how it performs under worst-case conditions. That predicates that the "best" system is never the most optimized one, but one which is crude (a relative word, to be sure) but robust. The V-22 I cannot judge given the information available, but it appears to be more of a niche system, rather than one which will be used in every situation where transport is needed. At least, with the current state of technology. But as I said, I cannot judge... -- Gernot Hassenpflug |
#14
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The Osprey Goes to War
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 8:25 pm, Vince wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote: *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than the survivability systems on the CH-46 Why not compare it to a conestoga wagon? that way it will look even better!!Considering the incredible cost of the Osprey comparing it to an antique helicopter that cost a fraction of the Osprey simply shows how desperate its proponents really are. Vince Because that would be hyperbole and doesn't belong in a discussion. Kerryn replied to a paragraph that directly compared the susceptability of the V-22 to the CH-46 and the -53. Then he directly asked about the survivability. I responded to his question, nothing else. What was that comment you made in the past about showing your students the fault in getting emotional in an argument/discussion? BB There is no emotion in my comment at all. I was simply pointing out hat the comparison was meaningless. Vince |
#15
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The Osprey Goes to War
Walt wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote: *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than the survivability systems on the CH-46 SNIP If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away. BB Is the Cobra really the only possible escort? I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the high speed transit phase. Roger- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't supress a treeline the way a Cobra can. I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's what you've seen me post: 1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is limited to the range and speed of the escorts 2. The V-22 needs guns of its own, and not one that fires backwards either. If the rotors are tilted forward then no door gunner can get a useful firing arc forward due to the arc of the rotors. 3. A chin turret was discussed (being the only reasonable option) but that was eliminated due to cost. I remember seeing this info in the MCG about 25 years ago. The freaking thing is a grotesque boondoggle. It will never be anything else. I posted a video of a V-22 crash and some of the info I am posting now on the website togetherweserved.com, which is for Marines only, and I was banned within 24 hours. Walt The chin turret is not just a question of cost. It uses about 10-15% of the already small payload and also "unbalances" the aircraft Vince |
#16
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The Osprey Goes to War
On Oct 2, 5:20 am, Walt wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote: *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than the survivability systems on the CH-46 SNIP If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away. BB Is the Cobra really the only possible escort? I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the high speed transit phase. Roger- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't supress a treeline the way a Cobra can. I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's what you've seen me post: 1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is limited to the range and speed of the escorts I'm not really sure why you think the Cobras will slow the V-22s down...operationally, it would be idiocy for the troop carriers to arrive over the battlefield at the same time as the gunships, since you want the gunships (and Harriers, to boot) to have arrived overhead and begun destroying targets and softening the LZ well before the larger birds are in the threat zone. If you've got troop carriers, be they CH-46s, Blackhawks, or V-22s cruising in looking for a place to land WHILE the first wave of Cobras is coming in, then it doesn't matter what airframe you're in, the bad guys will target the low, slow, fat with Marines birds and hope they can kill those before the snakes spot them. But with the increased speed of the V-22s, they can make more trips between the boat or base and the LZ in the same amount of time, which means more boots getting on the ground while the enemy is still recovering from the gunships' attention. Let the Cobras and Harriers come and go as fuel and weapons are expended...there will be enough that one flight can always be hitting the target zone while others are en route to or from the launch point. |
#17
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The Osprey Goes to War
"Walt" wrote in message ps.com... The freaking thing is a grotesque boondoggle. It will never be anything else. I posted a video of a V-22 crash and some of the info I am posting now on the website togetherweserved.com, which is for Marines only, and I was banned within 24 hours. The interesting thing is, my brother, who is a Marine Corporal and veteran of two tours, has seen Ospreys in Iraq and on a ship in the Gulf. -c |
#18
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The Osprey Goes to War
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 10:41 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote: *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than the survivability systems on the CH-46 And comparing the "brand new" V-22 with the CH-46 which is how old? (And last up-graded?) says a lot for just how good the V-22 must be... It was in response to your question about survivability, which directly followed a paragraph comparing the susceptability comparison between the -22,-46,-53. *** It wasn't a dig at your response.. Just at the fact that the comparisons are always V-22 against the CH-46... How does it compare with a modern military helicopter? Heck, how does it compare in survivability with even a Blackhawk? Can't speak for the Blackhawk (Army) but we did perform tests on the upgrades for the Seahawk, Cobra, Sea Stallion, and UH-1Y and Z. Similar systems and component technology that are original equipment in the V-22, have been retro-fitted into the upgrades for those (previously listed) platforms. *** So it comes down to the ability to auto rotate versus lack of that ability (Once you get hit...)? |
#19
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The Osprey Goes to War
"Kerryn Offord" wrote in message ... Mike wrote: USNI Proceedings Magazine Issue: October 2007 Vol. 133/10/1,256 The Osprey Goes to War By Richard Whittle SNIP "I don't think it's going to be any more vulnerable than the 46 or the 53," Glueck said. A CH-46 can "usually come into a zone a little bit quicker than the 53s. The V-22 is kind of in between the two." *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? The V-22 will have fighter or helicopter gunship escorts when going into zones where there's a known threat, Glueck said, and the Marines have mounted a 7.62-caliber M240G machine gun on the rear ramp. The Osprey also has chaff dispensers, infrared suppressors, and electronic defenses. SNIP If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Can the V-22 fly "like a plane" with the ramp down? At what penalty? I know the CH47 has a MG on the rear ramp, but that's a wider, bigger ramp.. How much of an obstruction is it for troops trying to get out in a hot LZ? I imagine (would guess) there is an airspeed limit with the ramp down (gun in place to be fired), probably in the range of 175 to 130 knots, above that the ramp would have to be up at least level to keep it from acting like a stabilator and pushing the nose down. Remember this is an aircraft with it's center of gravity at the wing. The CH-47 has 3 Machine guns mounted on it, one in the right door , one in the left forward window, and one on the ramp. 160th SOAR CH-47's use miniguns in the forward stations, and an M2 .50 Cal on the ramp floor. On the CH-47 the ramp gun can be quickly removed using a quick disconnect mount. The ramp gun on the MV-22 is side mounted on a 2 piece flex mount, and it can be quickly swung to the right side out of the way of troops exiting the aircraft, after pulling a quick release lock. Helomech |
#20
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The Osprey Goes to War
Paul wrote:
"Kerryn Offord" wrote in message ... Mike wrote: USNI Proceedings Magazine Issue: October 2007 Vol. 133/10/1,256 The Osprey Goes to War By Richard Whittle SNIP "I don't think it's going to be any more vulnerable than the 46 or the 53," Glueck said. A CH-46 can "usually come into a zone a little bit quicker than the 53s. The V-22 is kind of in between the two." *** Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit? The V-22 will have fighter or helicopter gunship escorts when going into zones where there's a known threat, Glueck said, and the Marines have mounted a 7.62-caliber M240G machine gun on the rear ramp. The Osprey also has chaff dispensers, infrared suppressors, and electronic defenses. SNIP If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed advantage over alternative modern helicopters.. Can the V-22 fly "like a plane" with the ramp down? At what penalty? I know the CH47 has a MG on the rear ramp, but that's a wider, bigger ramp.. How much of an obstruction is it for troops trying to get out in a hot LZ? I imagine (would guess) there is an airspeed limit with the ramp down (gun in place to be fired), probably in the range of 175 to 130 knots, above that the ramp would have to be up at least level to keep it from acting like a stabilator and pushing the nose down. Remember this is an aircraft with it's center of gravity at the wing. The CH-47 has 3 Machine guns mounted on it, one in the right door , one in the left forward window, and one on the ramp. 160th SOAR CH-47's use miniguns in the forward stations, and an M2 .50 Cal on the ramp floor. On the CH-47 the ramp gun can be quickly removed using a quick disconnect mount. The ramp gun on the MV-22 is side mounted on a 2 piece flex mount, and it can be quickly swung to the right side out of the way of troops exiting the aircraft, after pulling a quick release lock. Helomech Thank you. |
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